This health care reform debate is crazy!
08-18-2009, 05:18 PM
#311
Originally Posted by pukka' post='980699' date='Aug 18 2009, 09:43 AM
Amtrak was screwed from the start since they have to lease the track from the corporate railroads who make buttloads more money hauling freight. I can't argue much with anything else - they are valid points.
However, government deregulation hasn't done much better. Just look at how much we are paying to keep the financial industry afloat - and there's no certain end in sight.
Which bill would you rather pay?
However, government deregulation hasn't done much better. Just look at how much we are paying to keep the financial industry afloat - and there's no certain end in sight.
Which bill would you rather pay?
08-18-2009, 08:54 PM
#313
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Private, deregulated financial institutions were major, if not primary contributors to the real estate and financial collapse. Many, if not most, only exist today because of a government bailout. Funny how the same people oppose government intervention in healthcare. 
08-19-2009, 04:14 AM
#314
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Originally Posted by mjfloyd1' post='974989' date='Aug 13 2009, 03:15 PM
The United Kingdom is #18. You'd better hope you don't have kidney failure after the age of 65 there - you don't get dialysis! It's just "I'm sorry about your luck".
However, you don't know diddly about the UK Healthcare system, so please stick to what you know. Here in the UK we have been seeing a pile of crap from "Debaters" in the US using the NHS to bash the principle of government run healthcare. It's actually been quite sickening and disappointing to see and I don't think the vast majority of American citizens are dumb enough to swallow it.
Here is how it actually works:
Everyone who is earning money pays some contribution to the cost of the NHS. A large number of us still choose to pay for private health insurance because we may want an operation done more quickly, or have more choice about where we go for treatment.
We still pay into the NHS scheme because we care enough about each other to do it. We want to know that people less fortunate than ourselves can get a reasonable level of treatment when they need it. We also have somewhere to go if the insurance companies get jiggy with us (pre-existing conditions etc).
You can, if you really try, twist all this into some sort of liberty issue. But's here the bottom line.
The UK chose this system as a country. You can choose to have something similar or not, depending on how most of you vote.
The NHS is very far from perfect but most people who use it are generally impressed.
Do people over the age of 65 get dialysis free at the point of use here? Or do you have to have medical insurance?
At the end of the day, the decision you reach collectively in the USA will not be about liberty or freedom. Democracy will decide the issue. After all, everyone is free to vote and all votes are counted equally. Aren't they?
08-19-2009, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mjfloyd1' post='981401' date='Aug 18 2009, 09:18 PM
Did the fianancial industry bailout make much sense? It seems that it would have made more sense to strip off the toxic assets and leave them with the particular financial institution and keep the non toxic assets for the new government partially owned entity rather than what was done. Maybe someone else has better insight though.
Adjustable Rate Mortgages
Mortgage Backed Securites
and my favorite.....CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS.
All of these financial vehicles were the result of relaxed or no government oversight.
08-19-2009, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lancaster' post='981867' date='Aug 19 2009, 08:14 AM
However, you don't know diddly about the UK Healthcare system, so please stick to what you know. Here in the UK we have been seeing a pile of crap from "Debaters" in the US using the NHS to bash the principle of government run healthcare. It's actually been quite sickening and disappointing to see and I don't think the vast majority of American citizens are dumb enough to swallow it.
With that being said, not all Americans are dumb. This thread is a good example (of both dumb and smart).
08-19-2009, 06:20 AM
#317
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Originally Posted by pukka' post='981918' date='Aug 19 2009, 06:36 AM
Say anything in such a way that it incites fear, anger, or dare I say it.......CHANGE.......and the vast majority of Americans will swallow it WHOLE.
With that being said, not all Americans are dumb. This thread is a good example (of both dumb and smart).
With that being said, not all Americans are dumb. This thread is a good example (of both dumb and smart).
Lancaster is exactly right, this issue has absolutely nothing to do with "liberty" at all. The same Americans who rush their Chihuahua to vet as soon as he gets the sniffles are the ones that refuse to see the benefits of a system where even the lowliest worker in the country can go get his appendix removed without being left homeless.
P.S. Pukka - I myself have been an example of both smart and dumb, even on this thread. So this issue won't get resolved by intelligence alone. This is something that shouldn't be an issue - instead of asking "why are we doing this?" we should be saying "it's about friggin time!!!" The only arguments against are selfish arguments - those that don't want to see the gov't touch "one more penny of my check" Most Americans are just one MINOR accident away from homelessness and desperation. Either way we will all end up paying for them.
08-19-2009, 08:08 AM
#318
Originally Posted by Lancaster' post='981867' date='Aug 19 2009, 07:14 AM
It is interesting to watch the arguments here about Health Care (and really fascinating to see the "liberty" card being played again!).
However, you don't know diddly about the UK Healthcare system, so please stick to what you know. Here in the UK we have been seeing a pile of crap from "Debaters" in the US using the NHS to bash the principle of government run healthcare. It's actually been quite sickening and disappointing to see and I don't think the vast majority of American citizens are dumb enough to swallow it.
Here is how it actually works:
Everyone who is earning money pays some contribution to the cost of the NHS. A large number of us still choose to pay for private health insurance because we may want an operation done more quickly, or have more choice about where we go for treatment.
We still pay into the NHS scheme because we care enough about each other to do it. We want to know that people less fortunate than ourselves can get a reasonable level of treatment when they need it. We also have somewhere to go if the insurance companies get jiggy with us (pre-existing conditions etc).
You can, if you really try, twist all this into some sort of liberty issue. But's here the bottom line.
The UK chose this system as a country. You can choose to have something similar or not, depending on how most of you vote.
The NHS is very far from perfect but most people who use it are generally impressed.
Do people over the age of 65 get dialysis free at the point of use here? Or do you have to have medical insurance?
At the end of the day, the decision you reach collectively in the USA will not be about liberty or freedom. Democracy will decide the issue. After all, everyone is free to vote and all votes are counted equally. Aren't they?
However, you don't know diddly about the UK Healthcare system, so please stick to what you know. Here in the UK we have been seeing a pile of crap from "Debaters" in the US using the NHS to bash the principle of government run healthcare. It's actually been quite sickening and disappointing to see and I don't think the vast majority of American citizens are dumb enough to swallow it.
Here is how it actually works:
Everyone who is earning money pays some contribution to the cost of the NHS. A large number of us still choose to pay for private health insurance because we may want an operation done more quickly, or have more choice about where we go for treatment.
We still pay into the NHS scheme because we care enough about each other to do it. We want to know that people less fortunate than ourselves can get a reasonable level of treatment when they need it. We also have somewhere to go if the insurance companies get jiggy with us (pre-existing conditions etc).
You can, if you really try, twist all this into some sort of liberty issue. But's here the bottom line.
The UK chose this system as a country. You can choose to have something similar or not, depending on how most of you vote.
The NHS is very far from perfect but most people who use it are generally impressed.
Do people over the age of 65 get dialysis free at the point of use here? Or do you have to have medical insurance?
At the end of the day, the decision you reach collectively in the USA will not be about liberty or freedom. Democracy will decide the issue. After all, everyone is free to vote and all votes are counted equally. Aren't they?
How does the NHS deal with non British citizens? Has the British system always been a two tier system or is this relatively new?
Here people regardless of age are not refused treatment (dialysis), even non-US citizens. The hospital or the dialysis clinic bills but ultimately ends up writing it off. The cost is then seen by increased costs mainly for those with private insurance, but also for self pay patients although the payments can be negotiated.
There is a very large amount of write offs for treatments, surgeries, physician's bills, etc.
It does seem that there is a access problem for those with no insurance - I know that insurance is the first question asked when you try to get an appointment with a primary care doctor. Locally, the hospital has set up a clinic for the indigent and those who can't afford insurance and the clinic has a sliding scale of fees based on income. It is, however, limited to a two or three county area. The state has set up a "Healthy Indiana Plan" (HIP) and my local hospital has even gone so far as to pay the premiums for patients to get them enrolled. I don't know if similar plans could be used elsewhere, but it seems that local support is the key here - some local companies have given grants for the clinic to hire a new nurse practitioner and others have a building which they lease very cheaply to the clinic to use.
08-19-2009, 08:16 AM
#319
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Originally Posted by mjfloyd1' post='982062' date='Aug 19 2009, 09:08 AM
Sorry about the bad info.
How does the NHS deal with non British citizens? Has the British system always been a two tier system or is this relatively new?
Here people regardless of age are not refused treatment (dialysis), even non-US citizens. The hospital or the dialysis clinic bills but ultimately ends up writing it off. The cost is then seen by increased costs mainly for those with private insurance, but also for self pay patients although the payments can be negotiated.
There is a very large amount of write offs for treatments, surgeries, physician's bills, etc.
It does seem that there is a access problem for those with no insurance - I know that insurance is the first question asked when you try to get an appointment with a primary care doctor. Locally, the hospital has set up a clinic for the indigent and those who can't afford insurance and the clinic has a sliding scale of fees based on income. It is, however, limited to a two or three county area. The state has set up a "Healthy Indiana Plan" (HIP) and my local hospital has even gone so far as to pay the premiums for patients to get them enrolled. I don't know if similar plans could be used elsewhere, but it seems that local support is the key here - some local companies have given grants for the clinic to hire a new nurse practitioner and others have a building which they lease very cheaply to the clinic to use.
How does the NHS deal with non British citizens? Has the British system always been a two tier system or is this relatively new?
Here people regardless of age are not refused treatment (dialysis), even non-US citizens. The hospital or the dialysis clinic bills but ultimately ends up writing it off. The cost is then seen by increased costs mainly for those with private insurance, but also for self pay patients although the payments can be negotiated.
There is a very large amount of write offs for treatments, surgeries, physician's bills, etc.
It does seem that there is a access problem for those with no insurance - I know that insurance is the first question asked when you try to get an appointment with a primary care doctor. Locally, the hospital has set up a clinic for the indigent and those who can't afford insurance and the clinic has a sliding scale of fees based on income. It is, however, limited to a two or three county area. The state has set up a "Healthy Indiana Plan" (HIP) and my local hospital has even gone so far as to pay the premiums for patients to get them enrolled. I don't know if similar plans could be used elsewhere, but it seems that local support is the key here - some local companies have given grants for the clinic to hire a new nurse practitioner and others have a building which they lease very cheaply to the clinic to use.
What your local community is doing is commendable, but it is the first step - grants are not sustainable. We need a fundamental change in the access and ability of those less fortunate to get healthcare when needed.
Here, people are not denied health procedures like dialysis - this is true, but you will get smacked with a huge bill. Which is why most who need treatment don't get it until it is too late to do anything for them.
The key part MUST be preventative care, if people are encouraged to maintain themselves healthier and get treatment earlier then we will all pay less for healthcare. It is much cheaper to treat cancer early, for instance, than the "end of life" care we hear so much about.
08-19-2009, 08:36 AM
#320
Originally Posted by pjinca' post='982070' date='Aug 19 2009, 11:16 AM
To answer your first question: I England you don't have to be a citizen, if you are injured or sick and need treatment they still treat you free of charge and prescriptions are still $10 (or pounds, not sure).
What your local community is doing is commendable, but it is the first step - grants are not sustainable. We need a fundamental change in the access and ability of those less fortunate to get healthcare when needed.
Here, people are not denied health procedures like dialysis - this is true, but you will get smacked with a huge bill. Which is why most who need treatment don't get it until it is too late to do anything for them.
The key part MUST be preventative care, if people are encouraged to maintain themselves healthier and get treatment earlier then we will all pay less for healthcare. It is much cheaper to treat cancer early, for instance, than the "end of life" care we hear so much about.
What your local community is doing is commendable, but it is the first step - grants are not sustainable. We need a fundamental change in the access and ability of those less fortunate to get healthcare when needed.
Here, people are not denied health procedures like dialysis - this is true, but you will get smacked with a huge bill. Which is why most who need treatment don't get it until it is too late to do anything for them.
The key part MUST be preventative care, if people are encouraged to maintain themselves healthier and get treatment earlier then we will all pay less for healthcare. It is much cheaper to treat cancer early, for instance, than the "end of life" care we hear so much about.