This health care reform debate is crazy!
08-15-2009, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='977931' date='Aug 16 2009, 12:22 AM
One could have a high deductible catastrophic insurance policy for extended stays and emergencies. Rates would be low because the likelihood of such an event is low.
The problem is the general population has been accustomed to having everything covered 100% and having little to no copay. They want everything for free. This is like having car insurance to pay for oil changes and car washes. They all want to drive a BMW but pay for a Yugo.
As far as Dr's...You would be surprised. Have you ever spoke to a Dr. regarding paying them directly? Most are more than willing to take cash at a discounted rate.
The problem is the general population has been accustomed to having everything covered 100% and having little to no copay. They want everything for free. This is like having car insurance to pay for oil changes and car washes. They all want to drive a BMW but pay for a Yugo.
As far as Dr's...You would be surprised. Have you ever spoke to a Dr. regarding paying them directly? Most are more than willing to take cash at a discounted rate.
08-15-2009, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rogerj' post='977945' date='Aug 15 2009, 09:30 PM
The number 1 reason for bankruptcy in America is unpaid medical bills and you suggest that most people are accustomed to having 100% of their medical bills paid for? Like I said before... Ignorance is bliss.
Sorry Roger, but DRANGED is making at least partially good points - this thread dissolved into name calling enough already. Let's keep it to the topic. I do agree with you, medical bills are huge - even when partially covered by insurance, this is part of the reason why a national system favors us the consumer rather than the current system set up to disregard proper care in favor of boosting profits for insurers and their shareholders.
Which is why I partly agreed with DRANGED - eliminate the insurance companies, legislate malpractice limits, and cap costs allowed by doctors (some charge insurance obscene amounts for simple procedures) and costs WOULD come down. However, they will never again be at the level of allowing individuals to pay out of pocket for care again. This is 2009 not 1809
08-15-2009, 08:43 PM
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Glad to see we are on to solutions.........I have always believed that a truly flexible & yes non-taxable HSA should be an integral part of health care reform. I can't see how it could work as THE solution though. Show me the light.
08-15-2009, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='977918' date='Aug 15 2009, 11:13 PM
People are already allowed to do the above if you analogize an HSA with personal savings and with retirement and pension savings. As it stands, most people have woefully little of either. And that's really the heart of the issue. People, and this cuts through the entire socio-economic spectrum, simply cannot and do not save. To the extent your HSA is optional, it wouldn't change these behaviors. People would still roll the dice. And this, essentially, is why some tough love is needed.
I also think you're grossly underestimating the cost of healthcare. I base that on the cavalier posts about what you say you'd do, including mortgaging your house, to take care of you and your family. Quite simply, the cost of many procedures and many courses of treatment is vastly higher than the median value of single family homes in Minnesota. You almost certainly can't afford to cash the checks your posts are writing, John. Very, very few of us could.
I accept that the cost today is artificially higher than it should be (and that is one of the reasons why I advocate universal care, albeit with the option to supplement or replace the universal care with a private option) and we all know the reasons for that. Either way, a serious illness in the family could quite probably drive a family into bankruptcy.
I also think you're grossly underestimating the cost of healthcare. I base that on the cavalier posts about what you say you'd do, including mortgaging your house, to take care of you and your family. Quite simply, the cost of many procedures and many courses of treatment is vastly higher than the median value of single family homes in Minnesota. You almost certainly can't afford to cash the checks your posts are writing, John. Very, very few of us could.
I accept that the cost today is artificially higher than it should be (and that is one of the reasons why I advocate universal care, albeit with the option to supplement or replace the universal care with a private option) and we all know the reasons for that. Either way, a serious illness in the family could quite probably drive a family into bankruptcy.
We are going to tear down a health care system for less than 15% of the population that is uninsured, many by choice. Why not just insure that 15% that are uninsured? Why tear it all down? Most, read over 80%, of those polled and that have existing health care are satisfied with their coverage. Why then not try to fix what is broken? Why tear it all down if not for a complete take over by our gov't?
I think that you are woefully mistaken if you think the gov't will be able to run healthcare. To date the gov't has yet to be able to run one social program effectively or efficiently or without bankrupting said program. Why are you and others so quick to let gov't takeover? This is the heart of my problem with universal healthcare/inurance. It will fail.
Canada is moving towards privatizing health care again because their system is failing. Public health care is failing in Massachusettes.
National healthcare will fail. This is why I can afford to be cavalier and to own a Chevy Cavalier.
08-15-2009, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Alpine White Girl' post='977954' date='Aug 15 2009, 09:45 PM
no where did john ever say anything about trading animals for services. stop being childish and posting absurd things and trying to make a joke.
John is simply saying that if you have 15k in medical bills and offer to pay 11k in cash vs. make monthly payments for a long time that any doctor will take ALL the money in cash at one time. Car dealerships are the same way....once again stop trying to make him look stupid by suggesting that doctors are willing to trade services for farm animals.
John mentioned having insurance for large accidents. This is why i have insurance, i have a low premium because i only want health insurance in case i break a bone, have cancer, etc. I pay for all my regular doctor visits and small problems.
John is simply saying that if you have 15k in medical bills and offer to pay 11k in cash vs. make monthly payments for a long time that any doctor will take ALL the money in cash at one time. Car dealerships are the same way....once again stop trying to make him look stupid by suggesting that doctors are willing to trade services for farm animals.
John mentioned having insurance for large accidents. This is why i have insurance, i have a low premium because i only want health insurance in case i break a bone, have cancer, etc. I pay for all my regular doctor visits and small problems.
I'm through with your pseudo intelligent replies - go back to your little cave put your hood on and go to your cross burning and leave me alone. Go do something you've probably never done - read a book
08-15-2009, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rogerj' post='977945' date='Aug 15 2009, 09:30 PM
The number 1 reason for bankruptcy in America is unpaid medical bills and you suggest that most people are accustomed to having 100% of their medical bills paid for? Like I said before... Ignorance is bliss.
Sorry again Roger, I know I have contributed a fair share of the name calling, but i am sick and tired of being interrupted just when the conversation gets going in the right direction (true intelligent debate, over stupidity) by some back water hick. This issue needs full, proper, and more importantly UNIFIED agreement. National healthcare will never be achieved without compromise and hearing intelligent counter proposals (which I have to give DRANGED credit, he offers more than any Republican).
08-15-2009, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='977957' date='Aug 15 2009, 11:47 PM
I'm through with your pseudo intelligent replies - go back to your little cave put your hood on and go to your cross burning and leave me alone. Go do something you've probably never done - read a book
in a serious debate you suggest trading farm animals...are you kidding me? Your logical reasoning skills are right up there with your math skills you displayed in the other thread. GO CU
08-15-2009, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='977956' date='Aug 15 2009, 09:46 PM
We are going to tear down a health care system for less than 15% of the population that is uninsured, many by choice. Why not just insure that 15% that are uninsured? Why tear it all down? Most, read over 80%, of those polled and that have existing health care are satisfied with their coverage. Why then not try to fix what is broken? Why tear it all down if not for a complete take over by our gov't?
I think that you are woefully mistaken if you think the gov't will be able to run healthcare. To date the gov't has yet to be able to run one social program effectively or efficiently. Why are you and others so quick to let gov't takeover? This is the heart of my problem with universal healthcare/inurance. It will fail.
Canada is moving towards privatizing health care again because their system is failing. Public health care is failing in Massachusettes.
National healthcare will fail. This is why I can afford to be cavalier and to own a Chevy Cavalier.
I think that you are woefully mistaken if you think the gov't will be able to run healthcare. To date the gov't has yet to be able to run one social program effectively or efficiently. Why are you and others so quick to let gov't takeover? This is the heart of my problem with universal healthcare/inurance. It will fail.
Canada is moving towards privatizing health care again because their system is failing. Public health care is failing in Massachusettes.
National healthcare will fail. This is why I can afford to be cavalier and to own a Chevy Cavalier.
08-15-2009, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Alpine White Girl' post='977960' date='Aug 15 2009, 09:52 PM
Its funny watching you get mad and come back with childish and stupid remarks. Your the one suggesting that john thinks trading farm animals for medical services...You talk about pseudo intelligent replies yet resort to personal attacks and low blows. like i said before reading your stupid ass replies hurts....
in a serious debate you suggest trading farm animals...are you kidding me? Your logical reasoning skills are right up there with your math skills you displayed in the other thread. GO CU
in a serious debate you suggest trading farm animals...are you kidding me? Your logical reasoning skills are right up there with your math skills you displayed in the other thread. GO CU
Don't you have to register for cosmetology school or something? When you decide to come out of teh cornfields and join the real world - let us know. This is grown folks talk - as they say in the country