This health care reform debate is crazy!
08-14-2009, 08:56 AM
#201
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='976578' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:49 PM
That's a great post. I absolutely agree on all of your points. I also wish it were as simple!
I also wish it were as simple! It would, could and should be but monetary interests are at center stage in this expensive & expansive issue.
08-14-2009, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='976567' date='Aug 14 2009, 11:38 AM
You are correct, the Founding Fathers were prescient men. The Founding Fathers were also very principled men. As you know, principles do not change due to the contemporaneous issues of any day.
08-14-2009, 09:04 AM
#203
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Originally Posted by CWS530' post='976595' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:03 PM
I guess, then, we still should have slavery and women should be denied suffrage?
08-14-2009, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='976534' date='Aug 14 2009, 09:16 AM
Perhaps, and this is purely rhetorical opinion/guess, Jefferson foresaw gov't intrusion into every aspect of our lives and that is what he meant by trying to "a wise and frugal gov't, which shall restrain men from injuring other men, leaving them FREE to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement". Purely speculation on my part though.
Having read a majority of what Jefferson has written, as I'm sure you have, you know Jefferson would have wholly approved of our over reaching gov't that seeks to demonize, regulate or takeover every industry it sees fit. He would have totally wanted gov't run health care, gov't takeover of private business, social security, medicare, medicaid, a central bank. He would have wanted the gov't to sort out financial inequalitites via high taxes and redistribution of wealth. Jefferson was all about large gov't and less freedom.
Having read a majority of what Jefferson has written, as I'm sure you have, you know Jefferson would have wholly approved of our over reaching gov't that seeks to demonize, regulate or takeover every industry it sees fit. He would have totally wanted gov't run health care, gov't takeover of private business, social security, medicare, medicaid, a central bank. He would have wanted the gov't to sort out financial inequalitites via high taxes and redistribution of wealth. Jefferson was all about large gov't and less freedom.
Curious you mention that the founding fathers would have abhorred the government'involvement in industry. Maybe you need to read a little more history - Bank of The United States:
In 1791, a former aide to Morris, Alexander Hamilton, the Secretary of the Treasury, made a deal to support the transfer of the capital from Philadelphia to the banks of the Potomac in exchange for southern support for his Bank project. As a result, the First Bank of the United States (1791-1811) was chartered by Congress in that same year. The First Bank of the United States was modeled after the Bank of England and differed in many ways from today's central banks. For example, it was partly owned by foreigners, who shared in its profits. Also, it wasn't solely responsible for the country's supply of bank notes. It was responsible for only 20% of the currency supply; state banks accounted for the rest. Several founding fathers bitterly opposed the Bank
Thomas Jefferson did not approve of it's formation, but the point is that Gov't has had a hand in business since the inception of this country. Andrew Jackson eventually dissolved it.
Things the Gov't did quite well actually:
1) Airlines - we didn't have them failing all the time or the really poor level of service we currently have when the Gov't regulated them - thank Reagan for this one
2) Stock markets - FDR instituted measures to protect against another depression after the first one, and these worked well, until Greespan (see it's not just republicans) thought the markets had had enough and decided to let them regulate themselves - result? Well, we're living through it now
08-14-2009, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by garylewa' post='976570' date='Aug 14 2009, 09:44 AM
+1; Thanks for the exact quote.
I was close; it was off the top my head; for that I am apologetic for the omissions. Your second paragraph closely mirrors what I have written previously in this thread, I think pg. 3.
I understand that Jefferson and others can only relate to the issues in the era in which they live but Jefferson was also very concerned about the future of the fledgling states and knew what could happen if a government fell into corruption or into the wrong hands.
Healthcare during his era was archaic at best so you are right in that context regarding the words spoken were not relevant to healthcare. But on the other hand, he also had the premonition and hope that a future generation would abolish slavery in the states so he was thinking ahead of the curve. He just felt it wasn't in the country's best interest (and his) at the time with so many other things going on with the new states. Who knows? I would've liked to meet him though. His home, Monticello is beautiful.
It's amazing; two people that have never met (me & you) and live across the country from each other find common ground in a civil way and free from name calling on a very hot topic. I wish our congress would act the same way instead of trying to divide people all of the time on every issue.
I was close; it was off the top my head; for that I am apologetic for the omissions. Your second paragraph closely mirrors what I have written previously in this thread, I think pg. 3.
I understand that Jefferson and others can only relate to the issues in the era in which they live but Jefferson was also very concerned about the future of the fledgling states and knew what could happen if a government fell into corruption or into the wrong hands.
Healthcare during his era was archaic at best so you are right in that context regarding the words spoken were not relevant to healthcare. But on the other hand, he also had the premonition and hope that a future generation would abolish slavery in the states so he was thinking ahead of the curve. He just felt it wasn't in the country's best interest (and his) at the time with so many other things going on with the new states. Who knows? I would've liked to meet him though. His home, Monticello is beautiful.
It's amazing; two people that have never met (me & you) and live across the country from each other find common ground in a civil way and free from name calling on a very hot topic. I wish our congress would act the same way instead of trying to divide people all of the time on every issue.
+1 Fantastic post, seriously good job
08-14-2009, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='976573' date='Aug 14 2009, 11:46 AM
They do, and they absolutely should. They evolve, and they change over time. Society does much the same thing. To suggest otherwise is an oversimplification. What was right or seemed right in the past is not necessarily right now.
08-14-2009, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='976645' date='Aug 14 2009, 10:31 AM
Conflation of right and wrong is exactly how tyrannical governments such as ours have come to be.
08-14-2009, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='976647' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:34 PM
Do you really think our Gov't is "tyrannical" - don't get out much do you? Have you travelled? Maybe you should and see how things are elsewhere in the world. We enjoy so many freedoms denied others (such as talking about our Gov't on this forum). And still you seem to insist the Gov't is tyrannical? I would suggest you go live in another country for a year and you will be begging for a return to normalcy and freedom.
08-14-2009, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='976653' date='Aug 14 2009, 10:38 AM
I suggest you educate yourself as to the meaning of tyranny.
Please highlight the relevant parts of then definition:
The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and from a non-Indo-European loan word in Greek, τύραννος tyrannos, meaning "sovereign, master", although the latter was not pejorative and applicable to both good and bad leaders alike.
In modern usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of a small oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls. Many individual rulers or government officials are accused of tyranny, with the label almost always a matter of controversy.
OR
Main Entry: tyr?an?ny
Pronunciation: \ˈtir-ə-nē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural tyr?an?nies
Etymology: Middle English tyrannie, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin tyrannia, from Latin tyrannus tyrant
Date: 14th century
1 : oppressive power <every form of tyranny over the mind of man ? Thomas Jefferson>; especially : oppressive power exerted by government <the tyranny of a police state>
2 a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state b : the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
3 : a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force <living under the tyranny of the clock ? Dixon Wecter>
4 : a tyrannical act <workers who had suffered tyrannies>
Please educate yourself before you respond. Thank you
