This health care reform debate is crazy!
08-13-2009, 09:28 PM
#191
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='976104' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:24 PM
TO Swajames:
I read this today and found it appropriate
The hardest part about gaining any new idea is sweeping out the
false idea occupying that niche. As long as that niche is occupied,
evidence and proof and logical demonstration get nowhere.
But once the niche is emptied of the wrong idea that has been
filling it - once you can honestly say, I don't know,
then it becomes possible to get at the truth.
I read this today and found it appropriate
The hardest part about gaining any new idea is sweeping out the
false idea occupying that niche. As long as that niche is occupied,
evidence and proof and logical demonstration get nowhere.
But once the niche is emptied of the wrong idea that has been
filling it - once you can honestly say, I don't know,
then it becomes possible to get at the truth.
08-14-2009, 06:08 AM
#192
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='976083' date='Aug 14 2009, 01:10 AM
All I have left to say to you is read my new SIG made it just for the small minded, enjoy and 100 points if you can figure out who wrote it - good luck Warning may require reading
made it just for the small minded, enjoy and 100 points if you can figure out who wrote it - good luck Warning may require reading"made it just for the small-minded" but yet has an avatar of Will Ferrell??? Hmmm............one word: Suspect
Since your into quoting here is one that is on topic with the health-care argument by one the sharpest minds ever:
"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."
-T. Jefferson-
This administration and others are and have been doing just the opposite.
08-14-2009, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by garylewa' post='976397' date='Aug 14 2009, 07:08 AM
"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."
-T. Jefferson-
This administration and others are and have been doing just the opposite.
-T. Jefferson-
This administration and others are and have been doing just the opposite.
"...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
I'd argue that when you read the actual quote, perhaps Mr Jefferson equally foresaw the injurious nature of the challenges and inequalities we see now in healthcare.
The other thing is that while the founding fathers were undoubtedly very wise and prescient men, at one time each and every quote from Jefferson and others was contemporary. It spoke about the issues of the day. Their principles and philosophies remain very relevant, and have stood this country in good stead, but the points that were being made were contemporary to their time and not necessarily to ours. Those we face now are not necessarily those Mr Jefferson was speaking about in his wise words above.
08-14-2009, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='976489' date='Aug 14 2009, 10:50 AM
The actual quote from Jefferson is a little different to the text you posted. The important omissions are highlighted.
"...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
I'd argue that when you read the actual quote, perhaps Mr Jefferson equally foresaw the injurious nature of the challenges and inequalities we see now in healthcare.
"...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
I'd argue that when you read the actual quote, perhaps Mr Jefferson equally foresaw the injurious nature of the challenges and inequalities we see now in healthcare.
Having read a majority of what Jefferson has written, as I'm sure you have, you know Jefferson would have wholly approved of our over reaching gov't that seeks to demonize, regulate or takeover every industry it sees fit. He would have totally wanted gov't run health care, gov't takeover of private business, social security, medicare, medicaid, a central bank. He would have wanted the gov't to sort out financial inequalitites via high taxes and redistribution of wealth. Jefferson was all about large gov't and less freedom.
08-14-2009, 08:26 AM
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Most of us here probably can afford health insurance...many can probably afford to pay out of pocket for treatment if necessary. Maybe I'm selfish but looking at peoples responses here it doesn't appear I am the only one. Personally I don't want to pay for someone else's health care because then I would have to pay more taxes, I have good insurance that doesn't cost me much, I'm good. Even so there are too many people that can't afford insurance...can't afford to pay for their health care out of pocket. How productive to society are unwell people? I know if I'm sick I might drag myself to work but I certainly don't feel as productive as when I am well. How much does that cost our economy when you consider all those that can't find treatment? What about people with minor conditions that fail to get inexpensive treatment that escalate into something worse?
There is no health care system that works. Private, government, free for all there is no perfect system anywhere, if there was we would hear about it. To those that want to leave things the way they are are just idiots, greedy or insane; unfortunately treatments for those conditions are probably excluded under any insurance plan! Any system is going to have faults but I think if people pulled together as a country to put all our health first then at least it's a start.
There is no health care system that works. Private, government, free for all there is no perfect system anywhere, if there was we would hear about it. To those that want to leave things the way they are are just idiots, greedy or insane; unfortunately treatments for those conditions are probably excluded under any insurance plan! Any system is going to have faults but I think if people pulled together as a country to put all our health first then at least it's a start.
08-14-2009, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='976534' date='Aug 14 2009, 09:16 AM
Perhaps, and this is purely rhetorical opinion/guess, Jefferson foresaw gov't intrusion into every aspect of our lives and that is what he meant by trying to "a wise and frugal gov't, which shall restrain men from injuring other men, leaving them FREE to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement". Purely speculation on my part though.
Having read a majority of what Jefferson has written, as I'm sure you have, you know Jefferson would have wholly approved of our over reaching gov't that seeks to demonize, regulate or takeover every industry it sees fit. He would have totally wanted gov't run health care, gov't takeover of private business, social security, medicare, medicaid, a central bank. He would have wanted the gov't to sort out financial inequalitites via high taxes and redistribution of wealth. Jefferson was all about large gov't and less freedom.
Having read a majority of what Jefferson has written, as I'm sure you have, you know Jefferson would have wholly approved of our over reaching gov't that seeks to demonize, regulate or takeover every industry it sees fit. He would have totally wanted gov't run health care, gov't takeover of private business, social security, medicare, medicaid, a central bank. He would have wanted the gov't to sort out financial inequalitites via high taxes and redistribution of wealth. Jefferson was all about large gov't and less freedom.
The quote that was posted wasn't quite complete, the actual quote contained some pertinent qualifications that, to my mind at least, speak volumes and provide context relevant to the current debate. It is important to remember that injury can be caused by inaction, not just action.
As I said, the Founding Fathers were indeed prescient men. But their perspective and philosophy was informed by the contemporaneous issues of their day, not necessarily ours.
08-14-2009, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='976554' date='Aug 14 2009, 11:27 AM
As I said yesterday, I'm not here to convince you otherwise.
The quote that was posted was doctored, the actual quote contained some pertinent qualifications that, to my mind at least, speak volumes. It is important to remember that injury can be caused by inaction - not just action.
As I said, the Founding Fathers were indeed prescient men. But their perspective and philosophy was informed by the contemporaneous issues of the day.
The quote that was posted was doctored, the actual quote contained some pertinent qualifications that, to my mind at least, speak volumes. It is important to remember that injury can be caused by inaction - not just action.
As I said, the Founding Fathers were indeed prescient men. But their perspective and philosophy was informed by the contemporaneous issues of the day.
08-14-2009, 08:44 AM
#198
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='976489' date='Aug 14 2009, 11:50 AM
The actual quote from Jefferson is a little different to the text you posted. The important omissions are highlighted.
"...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
I'd argue that when you read the actual quote, perhaps Mr Jefferson equally foresaw the injurious nature of the challenges and inequalities we see now in healthcare.
The other thing is that while the founding fathers were undoubtedly very wise and prescient men, at one time each and every quote from Jefferson and others was contemporary. It spoke about the issues of the day. Their principles and philosophies remain very relevant, and have stood this country in good stead, but the points that were being made were contemporary to their time and not necessarily to ours. Those we face now are not necessarily those Mr Jefferson was speaking about in his wise words above.
"...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."
I'd argue that when you read the actual quote, perhaps Mr Jefferson equally foresaw the injurious nature of the challenges and inequalities we see now in healthcare.
The other thing is that while the founding fathers were undoubtedly very wise and prescient men, at one time each and every quote from Jefferson and others was contemporary. It spoke about the issues of the day. Their principles and philosophies remain very relevant, and have stood this country in good stead, but the points that were being made were contemporary to their time and not necessarily to ours. Those we face now are not necessarily those Mr Jefferson was speaking about in his wise words above.
I was close; it was off the top my head; for that I am apologetic for the omissions. Your second paragraph closely mirrors what I have written previously in this thread, I think pg. 3.
I understand that Jefferson and others can only relate to the issues in the era in which they live but Jefferson was also very concerned about the future of the fledgling states and knew what could happen if a government fell into corruption or into the wrong hands.
Healthcare during his era was archaic at best so you are right in that context regarding the words spoken were not relevant to healthcare. But on the other hand, he also had the premonition and hope that a future generation would abolish slavery in the states so he was thinking ahead of the curve. He just felt it wasn't in the country's best interest (and his) at the time with so many other things going on with the new states. Who knows? I would've liked to meet him though. His home, Monticello is beautiful.
It's amazing; two people that have never met (me & you) and live across the country from each other find common ground in a civil way and free from name calling on a very hot topic. I wish our congress would act the same way instead of trying to divide people all of the time on every issue.
08-14-2009, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='976567' date='Aug 14 2009, 09:38 AM
You are correct, the Founding Fathers were prescient men. The Founding Fathers were also very principled men. As you know, principles do not change due to the contemporaneous issues of any day.
08-14-2009, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by garylewa' post='976570' date='Aug 14 2009, 09:44 AM
+1; Thanks for the exact quote.
I was close; it was off the top my head; for that I am apologetic for the omissions. Your second paragraph closely mirrors what I have written previously in this thread, I think pg. 3.
I understand that Jefferson and others can only relate to the issues in the era in which they live but Jefferson was also very concerned about the future of the fledgling states and knew what could happen if a government fell into corruption or into the wrong hands.
Healthcare during his era was archaic at best so you are right in that context regarding the words spoken were not relevant to healthcare. But on the other hand, he also had the premonition and hope that a future generation would abolish slavery in the states so he was thinking ahead of the curve. He just felt it wasn't in the country's best interest (and his) at the time with so many other things going on with the new states. Who knows? I would've liked to meet him though. His home, Monticello is beautiful.
It's amazing; two people that have never met (me & you) and live across the country from each other find common ground in a civil way and free from name calling on a very hot topic. I wish our congress would act the same way instead of trying to divide people all of the time on every issue.
I was close; it was off the top my head; for that I am apologetic for the omissions. Your second paragraph closely mirrors what I have written previously in this thread, I think pg. 3.
I understand that Jefferson and others can only relate to the issues in the era in which they live but Jefferson was also very concerned about the future of the fledgling states and knew what could happen if a government fell into corruption or into the wrong hands.
Healthcare during his era was archaic at best so you are right in that context regarding the words spoken were not relevant to healthcare. But on the other hand, he also had the premonition and hope that a future generation would abolish slavery in the states so he was thinking ahead of the curve. He just felt it wasn't in the country's best interest (and his) at the time with so many other things going on with the new states. Who knows? I would've liked to meet him though. His home, Monticello is beautiful.
It's amazing; two people that have never met (me & you) and live across the country from each other find common ground in a civil way and free from name calling on a very hot topic. I wish our congress would act the same way instead of trying to divide people all of the time on every issue.