This health care reform debate is crazy!
08-13-2009, 10:28 AM
#131
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='975271' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:18 AM
Well, no, I am not Mexican, but my wife is. My parents are from Chile. I was born here, so I am American. Hence the distinction, as I tell my friends that claim to Mexican - are you now or have you ever been a Mexican citizen? No, then shut up - you're American, your PARENTS are Mexican.
08-13-2009, 10:29 AM
#132
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good chat yall!! now who wants to talk BMW? 
08-13-2009, 10:33 AM
#133
Originally Posted by pjinca' post='975208' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:29 PM
Actually this is ridiculous post: Go ahead (God forbid) get in an accident and end up at a "non-member" hospital, or have you treatment performeed at a member hospital but by a non-member doctor and we'll see if you can still afford your 5 er much less mods. Because the result would thousands of dollars in medical bills. Good luck with that. Especially when you are critically in need of care and the last thing you ask is: "hey you're not a member, can you send to one that is?" right as you flatline.
The great thing about universal healthcare is you can go anywhere, anytime and receive the same coverage - regardless of membership. Also, yes, I do think hard decisions need to be made in "end-of-life" situations, and they always will be that will never change.
The great thing about universal healthcare is you can go anywhere, anytime and receive the same coverage - regardless of membership. Also, yes, I do think hard decisions need to be made in "end-of-life" situations, and they always will be that will never change.
08-13-2009, 10:36 AM
#134
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Originally Posted by pipper' post='975236' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:51 PM
police department? (or would you rather hire your own personal militia?)
fire department?
you like plumbing and running water in your house?
if canada decides to attack us
would you rather have you and a neighbor defending your house or the marines?
or would you rather privatize all this and put it into the private sector who's ONLY concern is profit and loss.
no one is saying the govt will be the ONLY provider of healthcare, but rather an option for people who dont have insurance. heaven forbid you get cancer and then lose your job, cause it will be IMPOSSIBLE for you to find insurance nowadays, then youll be stuck with a 6 figure bill every year for the rest of your life. consider it like public schools, you pay for them in your taxes and you can use them if you like. or you can send your kids to a private school and pay from your own pocket.
fire department?
you like plumbing and running water in your house?
if canada decides to attack us
would you rather have you and a neighbor defending your house or the marines?or would you rather privatize all this and put it into the private sector who's ONLY concern is profit and loss.
no one is saying the govt will be the ONLY provider of healthcare, but rather an option for people who dont have insurance. heaven forbid you get cancer and then lose your job, cause it will be IMPOSSIBLE for you to find insurance nowadays, then youll be stuck with a 6 figure bill every year for the rest of your life. consider it like public schools, you pay for them in your taxes and you can use them if you like. or you can send your kids to a private school and pay from your own pocket.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Gerald Ford, Address to a Joint Session of Congress August 12, 1974
The evil private sector is exactly the reason our society has advanced and is prosperous, not gov't. The free market system drives competition, competition drives excellence, excellence allows profit, profit allows prosperity. The gov't does the opposite, it encourages people to not contribute to society and actually rewards them for not contributing. The gov't punishes those that succeed and rewards those who do not contribute. We are not a prosperous nation because of gov't/public sector, we are a prosperous nation because of individualism/private sector.
I am forced to pay into the public school system whether or not I have a child and whether or not my child attends public school. I do not have a choice. Private schools excel because there is competition. Public schools do not compete with Private schools. Public schools do not fail because they are underfunded, in fact in many cases, public schools spend more per pupil than private school. Why do public schools fail? Public schools fail because they lack competition. Competition drives one to excel, not gov't. Competition drives costs lower, not gov't.
The same thing that has happened with the public school system will happen with public health care. It will fail, just like every public gov't social program has failed.
08-13-2009, 10:37 AM
#135
Originally Posted by pjinca' post='975232' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:49 PM
sitting at county general WITH insurance blows if it is not a "member" hospital, better hope you can hop to one that is
08-13-2009, 10:42 AM
#136
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Originally Posted by mjfloyd1' post='975292' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:37 AM
If it is an emergency it is treated as "in network" as you have no choice. It's quite an easy argument with insurance companies.
Try telling that to those that have thousands of dollars in bills piled up. I don't know where you live but here in SoCal they just did a report the other day on news of several people that "thought" they had good insurance until they had an accident and ended up with bills ranging from $12K -40K. Good luck with that.
08-13-2009, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='975294' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:42 AM
Try telling that to those that have thousands of dollars in bills piled up. I don't know where you live but here in SoCal they just did a report the other day on news of several people that "thought" they had good insurance until they had an accident and ended up with bills ranging from $12K -40K. Good luck with that.
08-13-2009, 10:53 AM
#138
Originally Posted by pjinca' post='975294' date='Aug 13 2009, 01:42 PM
Try telling that to those that have thousands of dollars in bills piled up. I don't know where you live but here in SoCal they just did a report the other day on news of several people that "thought" they had good insurance until they had an accident and ended up with bills ranging from $12K -40K. Good luck with that.
2) People need to be smart enough to ask questions when things aren't as they would like them. It truly is an easy argument when you have an emergency situation.
08-13-2009, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mjfloyd1' post='975309' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:53 AM
1) People need to be smart enough to read the fine print when they buy something. Especially insurance. If things are not covered that they say are covered according to their contract, they need to complain to their state insurance commission.
2) People need to be smart enough to ask questions when things aren't as they would like them. It truly is an easy argument when you have an emergency situation.
2) People need to be smart enough to ask questions when things aren't as they would like them. It truly is an easy argument when you have an emergency situation.
2) Again, if you're semi-conscious at best are you really asking lucid questions? Seriously.
08-13-2009, 11:34 AM
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I wrote this in February which applies to this debate.
Steve, you can cut and paste your reply too.
Originally Posted by DRANGED' post='782861' date='Feb 2 2009, 12:09 AM
My favorite quote in regards to health care, "If you think health care is expensive now, wait till it's free."
Here is the problem. Can anyone name something that government does better or cheaper than the private sector? That's right, there isn't anything that gov't does better or cheaper than the private sector!!!
When you offer a product for free or subsidized by the gov't you create a false demand for said product. The false demand for this product increases the price of said product and the cost to the gov't increases. Gov't is forced to impose price controls and rationing on the product to try to control the cost and false demand for the product.
Lets say I am gov't and health care is an Ipod. I start giving away $200 Ipods(healthcare) for free and pay for the downloading of music(healthcare). Keep in mind I am buying these Ipods from Apple for $200 and music downloads are $1. Suddenly everyone wants an Ipod, people who never needed an Ipod now want one. These same people start downloading music at an exponential rate. I have now created a FALSE DEMAND for Ipods/downloads because I am giving it away for free or at a cost the is being held low due to subsidies.
Supply can't keep up with Ipod demand, driving up the cost of Ipods and downloads. Ipods now cost $400 and downloads are $2 because of this FALSE DEMAND that I have created. I have to raise taxes on my citizens and start rationing Ipods/downloads because I cannot afford the cost to give everyone Ipods/downloads. I now impose price controls on Apple and force them to sell me the Ipod for $50 dollars and downloads for $.50 in an attempt to control costs. Now the people who really need Ipods can't get one because of this FALSE DEMAND or they are forced to wait an extended period of time until one becomes available. Apple no longer wants to make Ipods because it is no longer profitable for them because I have forced them to make them for $50. People are paying exorbitant taxes to pay for this Ipod program, they no longer want to work because no matter how long or hard they work, I take all of their $$ to pay for Ipods and downloads. There is no longer anyone to tax because there is no incentive to work because Gov't takes all of your money to pay for Ipods and downloads. Eventually there is no one left to tax/no one left to pay for these programs.
Does everyone now understand why universal health care and socialism don't and can't work?
Gov't drives up the cost of everything it touches. The current rate of growth of gov't is unsustainable!! Gov't IS the problem, it is not and will never be the answer.
The people of the US are a good people, we the people are the answer. Allow people to keep more of their taxes. CUT TAXES for those who actually pay taxes. Trust the people to do the right thing with their money, they have always done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future if we allow them the opportunity. Charities should provide for the less fortunate, not gov't. Neighbors should help neighbors, not Gov't. Families should help family, Friends should help friends not Gov't.
Look around our country at the states that are flourishing and that have no budget shortfalls. They have limited gov't, low taxes, Little or no corporate tax. In contrast, look at the states that are failing ie California, MN...insert your failing state. They have huge gov't spending, giant social programs, high taxes, high corporate tax rates.
America can't make socialism work. Socialism has never worked. AMERICAN SOCIALISM will fail just like America's attempts at Social programs fail. We do not have one social program that is sustainable in this country.
"When all the objectives of government include the achievement of equality - other than equality before the law - that government poses a threat to liberty." Margaret Thatcher
Here is the problem. Can anyone name something that government does better or cheaper than the private sector? That's right, there isn't anything that gov't does better or cheaper than the private sector!!!
When you offer a product for free or subsidized by the gov't you create a false demand for said product. The false demand for this product increases the price of said product and the cost to the gov't increases. Gov't is forced to impose price controls and rationing on the product to try to control the cost and false demand for the product.
Lets say I am gov't and health care is an Ipod. I start giving away $200 Ipods(healthcare) for free and pay for the downloading of music(healthcare). Keep in mind I am buying these Ipods from Apple for $200 and music downloads are $1. Suddenly everyone wants an Ipod, people who never needed an Ipod now want one. These same people start downloading music at an exponential rate. I have now created a FALSE DEMAND for Ipods/downloads because I am giving it away for free or at a cost the is being held low due to subsidies.
Supply can't keep up with Ipod demand, driving up the cost of Ipods and downloads. Ipods now cost $400 and downloads are $2 because of this FALSE DEMAND that I have created. I have to raise taxes on my citizens and start rationing Ipods/downloads because I cannot afford the cost to give everyone Ipods/downloads. I now impose price controls on Apple and force them to sell me the Ipod for $50 dollars and downloads for $.50 in an attempt to control costs. Now the people who really need Ipods can't get one because of this FALSE DEMAND or they are forced to wait an extended period of time until one becomes available. Apple no longer wants to make Ipods because it is no longer profitable for them because I have forced them to make them for $50. People are paying exorbitant taxes to pay for this Ipod program, they no longer want to work because no matter how long or hard they work, I take all of their $$ to pay for Ipods and downloads. There is no longer anyone to tax because there is no incentive to work because Gov't takes all of your money to pay for Ipods and downloads. Eventually there is no one left to tax/no one left to pay for these programs.
Does everyone now understand why universal health care and socialism don't and can't work?
Gov't drives up the cost of everything it touches. The current rate of growth of gov't is unsustainable!! Gov't IS the problem, it is not and will never be the answer.
The people of the US are a good people, we the people are the answer. Allow people to keep more of their taxes. CUT TAXES for those who actually pay taxes. Trust the people to do the right thing with their money, they have always done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future if we allow them the opportunity. Charities should provide for the less fortunate, not gov't. Neighbors should help neighbors, not Gov't. Families should help family, Friends should help friends not Gov't.
Look around our country at the states that are flourishing and that have no budget shortfalls. They have limited gov't, low taxes, Little or no corporate tax. In contrast, look at the states that are failing ie California, MN...insert your failing state. They have huge gov't spending, giant social programs, high taxes, high corporate tax rates.
America can't make socialism work. Socialism has never worked. AMERICAN SOCIALISM will fail just like America's attempts at Social programs fail. We do not have one social program that is sustainable in this country.
"When all the objectives of government include the achievement of equality - other than equality before the law - that government poses a threat to liberty." Margaret Thatcher
Steve, you can cut and paste your reply too.