E60 M5 VS E55 AMG....where can one get..

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04-01-2006, 05:05 PM

#31

Simple1

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Originally Posted by 700700' post='262727' date='Mar 30 2006, 05:49 PM

and if you tell me that the SLR is not one of the best machines ever created i will have to laugh

Is this a fact? I mean alot of people that drove the car loved the acceleration in the car but for the most part everything else they felt was meh for it's price. So one of the best machines ever created?

a damn beautiful machine yea I guess

personally I'll trade it in a heartbeat for CGT or sell it and get the new F1 but hey different strokes for different folks ha

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04-01-2006, 08:00 PM

#32

wolverine

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Originally Posted by Znod' post='262842' date='Mar 30 2006, 10:44 PM

My complete list is below. It looks like you posted a shorten special-purpose list I posted elsewhere. The list supposedly contains "confirmed" Ring times. I found the list on the Z06 forum and do not know who compiled it or how accurate it is. I have added a few items as I happened across them.

The record for a "production" car is held by the ?Radical? (however ?production car? is defined). The cars with #?s before them are ?modified cars? (however defined). The cars with an HVS designation supposedly were driven by Horst Von Saurma of Sport Auto Magazine.

There are several M5 times below. In regard to the C6 Z06, Dave Hill, the Corvette Platform manager, confirmed that Jan Magnussen lapped the Nurburing in 7:43 in an unmodified, stock tire, 2006 Corvette Z06. Apparently, Autoweek reported the Z06?s run, but mistakenly attributed the run to the rumored "Blue Devil" super-Z06. The latest Roundel indicates that the M6 has lapped the Ring in 8:09 seconds--which puts the M6 in pretty select company. BMW engineers believe it could get close to 8:00 without the governor. I have listed cars that we might be particularly interested in in bold.

6:59 --- Ferrari 312T, Niki Lauda, German GP, training (1975)
7:06 --- Ferrari 312T, Clay Regazzoni, German GP, race (1975)
*1.2m longer circuit than standard Nordschleife

6:11 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, training (1983)
6:26 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, race (1983)
6:41 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Derek Bell
7:50 --- BMW X5 Le Mans V12, Hans Stuck (2001)
*0.232 km longer than current, standard Nordschleife
7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, J?rg M?ller (2003)
7:18.1-- Donkervoort D8 RS (12/2004) HVS
7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003)
7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated
7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther R?hrl, Autobild (7/2004)
7:32.4 -- Porsche Carrera GT, HVS
7:32.5 - #Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001)
7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther R?hrl (2002)
7:40* -- Porsche Carrera GT, *estimated time on cold and partially wet track (2003) HVS
7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004
7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
7:43 --- 2006 Corvette Z06, Jan Magnussen
7:43 --- #TechArt GT Street
7:43 --- Porsche 996 911 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Rohrl, MOTOR Magazine
7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago Autocar Magazine 2002)
7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (07/2003) HVS
7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (12/2000) HVS
7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2 HVS
7:46 --- #SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004) HVS
7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup HVS
7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (08/2003) HVS?Track Car
7:50 --- #Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Sch?rg (1997)
7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (06/2002) HVS
7:52 --- #Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (12/2003) HVS
7:52 --- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004) HVS
7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003) HVS
7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (02/2004) HVS
7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo HVS
7:56 --- Honda NSX-R - Motoharu Kurosawa, Best MOTORing
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6, Dave Hill
7:57 --- #Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS, racing suspension
7:59 --- #Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis), Walter Rohrl ? WHEELS June 2004)
8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting), Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999) HVS
8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT (07/2000) HVS
8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (12/2002) HVS
8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting), Walter Rohrl (WHEELS June 2004)
8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG HVS
8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
8:06 --- Subaru Impreza Sti spec C - Motoharu Kurosawa, Best MOTORing
8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello (06/1998)
8:09---BMW M6 (2/06)
8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 3.2 (08/2002)
8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena (10/1999) HVS
8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?) HVS
8:10 --- Dodge Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS (10/1997) HVS
8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R HVS
8:11 --- Mitsubishi Lancer EVO IX (video here)
8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (04/2002) HVS
8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo (HVS)
8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS (05/1999) HVS
8:13 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10, 506 PS (10/2004) HVS
8:13 --- BMW M5 (E60) (12/2004) HVS
8:15 --- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 PS
8:15*-- #Holden GTS (2000), *estimated
8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:16 --- #AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS (11/1997)
8:16 --- AC Schnitzer Z4 V8 Topster (01/2005) HVS
8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish (2003) HVS
8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2 HVS
8:18 --- 2004 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Commemorative Edition, (09/2003) HVS
8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000) HVS
8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997) HVS
8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002) HVS
8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000) HVS
8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998) HVS
8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004) HVS
8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003) HVS
8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4 HVS
8:24 --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (2004) HVS
8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP HVS
8:25 --- Callaway C12 HVS
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI (11/1999) HVS
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VII (11/2002) HVS
8:26 --- Mercedes Benz SLK 32 AMG (05/2001) HVS
8:26 --- Nissan 350Z (2003) HVS
8:28 --- BMW M5, 400 PS (also confirmed by Motor Commodore magazine, 2000) HVS
8:28 --- Nissan Skyline GTR, 277 PS
8:28 --- Porsche 993 Carrera 2 HVS
8:29 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG (05/2000) HVS
8:29 --- Audi S4 4.2 Avant (11/2003) HVS
8:30 --- Maserati Coupe Cambiocorsa (10/2002) HVS
8:31 --- Ferrari F355 GTS, 380 PS
8:32 --- BMW M Roadster, 321 PS (09/1997) HVS
8:32 --- BMW Z4 3.0 SMG (05/2003) HVS
8:32 --- Porsche Boxster S HVS
8:32 --- Volkswagen Golf R32 HVS
8:34 --- Acura NSX, 276 PS
8:34 --- BMW Z3 Coupe 3.0i, 231 PS (04/2001) HVS
8:35 --- BMW M3 Coupe, 321 PS HVS
8:35 --- #Brabus-Mercedes Benz C V8 Sportcoup? (02/2002)
8:35 --- BMW 130i
8:36 --- BMW E36 M3 EVO, 321 PS
8:36 --- #Alpina-BMW B3 3.3 Coupe (07/1999)
8:37 --- Maserati 3200GT (2002) HVS
8:37 --- Mercedes Benz C32 AMG (09/2001) HVS
8:37 --- Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec, 350 PS
8:37 --- Subaru Impreza GT Turbo HVS
8:37 --- Honda NSX 3.0 (07/1991) HVS
8:38 --- Honda NSX 3.2 (08/1997) HVS
8:38 --- Mercedes Benz SL500 (12/2001) HVS
8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- #Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000) HVS
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003) HVS
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997) HVS
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999) HVS
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999) HVS
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998) HVS
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000) HVS
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000) HVS
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 HVS
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001) HVS
8:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998) HVS
8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6 HVS
8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T Quattro Coupe, 225 PS (11/1998) HVS
8:50* -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (2000)
8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998) HVS
8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430 HVS
8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991) HVS
9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion HVS

Excellent list, but one very important thing to consider. Autozeitig (sp?) just tested the M6 with Conti tires, and recorded a 2 second difference between the conti's and the Pirelli Corsa's on a 1:40 lap. The times posted above for the M5 and M6 are using Corsa's on the M6 and Conti's on the M5. Corsa's are basically track tires that you can use on the road. Conti's are middle of the road performance tires. I'll bet my M5 with 20" Michelin PS2's, and H&R springs, and resonator and charcoal filters removed will come darn close to the M6 time around the 'ring. That's for $10,000 less after minor mods, and with a real back seat.

The other thing that street driver's don't talk enough about is the ability to operate the car 'at the edge', or in the M5's case, the 'edge' is more like a plateau. I've never driven a car that has so much room at the limit, and is so easy to drive very, very fast. You can enter a turn too fast, turn in sharply, and you'll oversteer gently until you correct the steering, or apply a little throttle. The car will never bite you, it just gradually lets you know you need to make some corrections, no matter what the circumstance. Everything is desinged to tell you exactly what is going on, so you can make adjustments.

In the case of the 'vette, sure, an experienced race driver, operating at 10/10ths where even he doesn't feel really comfortable, can get the car around a track a lot faster than the M5. Of course, he'll get out of the car sweating bullets. In recent carmag tests, the drivers felt the 'vette was 'scary' to drive fast, and actually preferred the Viper - one of the most difficult cars to drive fast on the road today.

Same thing holds for the Merc's - great numbers, but no real feel for what the car is doing, and no ability to control it. There's an article in a british carmag where they ran the M5 against a Ferarri 430, and the M5 was the faster car on that trip. They even switched drivers, and whoever was driving the M5 was calling the shots. OK, these guys were journalists, not pro's, but still they were very good drivers. Yes a pro can run great numbers with a 'vette, but so what? Pro golfers play with forged blades - who thinks those are the best clubs for your game?

I've messed with a couple new 'vettes, one a Z06 where we ran down a straight, and he gained a CL going into the first turn. I passed him coming out of the turn because I braked later, then I just blew by him on the straight because he got a little out of balance coming out of the turn. The M5 was perfect, just a little oversteer, and I was on the throttle to hook up the rear end. I'll venture to say the M5 will hold it's own against any car out there that's not driven by a pro. The BMW engineers have done one heck of a job to make what I believe is the easiest car to drive very, very fast that's ever been produced. For me, that is one of the most appealing things about the M5 that doesn't show up in the test numbers. And of course, it is a 5 person sedan...