Ray Hull

HUH? How about ALL other cars, and just what is GOOD about that? It's dumb, inconvenient and probably would fall under the category of "dangerous" to the BMW safety Nazis. Change does not equal progress.

Ray Hull

vern

You have to be the number 1 whinner on this forum.Don't you ever post any thing without whinning?
cheers
vern

needforspeed

Ray - I don't think it is whining just to question 'why' something has to be a certain way ....

I completely agree with you on this .. only Rudy has posted any sensible explanation of why this is better than a traditional indicator system .. and personally I think it is wrong that ergonomics comes second to electronic convenience and gimmickry in what should be the ultimate drivers car.

That said ... it doesn't keep me awake at night .. and I CAN work the indicators so no-one should worry about my safety

Rudy

Not to fuel any fires here but over the last few days I've been driving an M-B and it reminded me of one more thing that is better about the BMW system -- the position of the stalk in the BMW is higher and easier to operate without taking your hands out of position. The one on the M-B is lower and when you move it to a left-turn postition, it becomes very low. Try doing a left-hand lane-change while keeping your hands on the wheel at 9 & 3 or 10 & 2 o'clock...

Ray Hull

Dunno what your problem is Vern, but it's apparent that you are a consistently bad speller. If you don't like my observations, I strongly suggest you overlook them; your responses contribute nothing--except whining.

Jeers,
Ray Hull

big_ipaq

Ray, far from me to upset you or anyone else. I consider the usage of word "Nazi" anywhere near such a context, completely inapropriate. Please don't blame on me, we have different backgrounds, and I am entitled to an opinion.

I consider many writers from auto press complete idiots. I consider issues of such columnists with iDrive are simply idiotic. This is just a sample. So please don't bring these primitives into discussion. Just because they have to drive all kind of cars, does not mean they know the absolute truth. Plus they always have some material interest...

On the other hand I was just saying that in Europe, you almost cannot buy a car without such a blinker command system. BMW, Audi, VW, Opel, they are all doing it. I wonder why? Are they all morons? Are all designers complete idiots? I doubt it. I have no ideea about US, but usually I don't like any US car (no offence please, just my taste) so I am not surprised you usually don't like manuals, diesels, or ingenious and easy-to-use (my opinion of course) blinker command system. Well, of course there are exceptions to this.

I know automobile history, and except maybe for Ford T and some other very notable exception, I consider the mechanic platforms of US cars, primitive. Please don't flame me for this, as this again is my opinion. Also note that I am not German, so I am not subjective because of my nationality.

It's completely clear you don't like this system, and I apreciate your honesty. But please understand two things (a) we got the ideea very clear and (b) we love them and we consider an important advance. Tomorrow if you will provide me with an E60 without such blinker system I would not be happy. AT ALL.

Are we idiots? No, surely not. Do you think we are? Yes, but that's your problem. I NEVER blink left, right, left, and never do mistakes with my stalk. Am I a pianist? No. I am just a software engineer and I have good knowledge of ergonomics in my field. Would I approve such a change. FOR SURE. Would I be pissed of if someone like you don't like it and whine (sorry) about it? No, I know for sure, my dad would have hard times understanding it.

Do I consider the blamed stalk as ergonomic? YES, TOTALLY!

So I do have one kind request. Don't try to ruin our opinion. Let us blink the way we consider appropriate. Let us enjoy the car we bought. I would not change a bit on my E60. I know many working for BMW and I know a lot of inside information. I know how hard they research ANY change. There will always be someone like you and moronic writers (no connection between the two) that will not like such changes. But then this happens with anything in our lifes. From music to art and from different generations to different gender. There are many conflicts and conflicting feelings about things in life. That's life. I am surprised there are guys not knowing this. This time, those loving this blinker command system, WON. Maybe next time they will change it back and you'll win. I am not sure if I would be THAT upset not to buy another BMW, but I will think about it. I cannot imagine driving long hours on Autobahn without the comfort of such command systems.

And if you allow me one piece of humble advice. If you do say you love your BMW, please try to understand the system and excercise it, you may like it after all.

Thanks and please don't be offended by anything that may be interpretable. My intention is always in the positive way. Also, not being an English language native, probably my language command is not that good. I am trying to improve anyway, not saying my native language is better.

needforspeed

First of all - I'm amazed at how exited and upset some people can get about this...

Big_ipaq I thought you post was excellent and you are totally entitled to your opinion as is Ray Hull.

I have 2 points:

1. I don't see why the 'soft touch' system is any better than a traditional click up and down system (other than Rudys point that this was better in programming terms).

2. I think the ergonomics of the wheel and turn indicator displays is poor. Although this will change dependant on your choice of wheel or driving position, I can't remember driving any other car where I could not see the turn indicators.

The ergonomics could be just a personal thing, but I see a lot of people do agree with me on this.

At the moment I still consider this to be a bit of a gimmick, others don't and I would like to understand why.

Just why is this an 'important advance' ?

Why is it better ?

big_ipaq

Thanks needforspeed. I hope nobody would consider my post offensive in anyway.

Okay, let me have a try...

• it is important that the stalk will ALWAYS be in the same position, this way, you can develop a reflex whenever needing it. In some older cars I owned, it happened to forget blinker on one side then search with my hand the stalk, when needing it.
• on highway the old system needed attention. You would have signaled a lane change, then remember to push it back to neutral. this is not the case anymore. Three blinks on a gentle push is all I wanted on highway.
• while in town for exemple, and make a turn, I don't gentle push, I push it all the way. Except that the stalk will not retain pushed position, everything is the same as it was in old cars. The blinker will be cancelled by steering wheel turning.
• same control logic in windows. Gentle push, will move the window partly, hard push will do it the old fashioned way. Why are you not annoyed by windows gentle/hard behaviour?!?
• If you want to cancel a turn and steering wheel will not be turned to cancel it, you can just tap it in any direction and will be canceled.
• I consider this driver oriented, like everything in BMW filosophy. When used to it, you won't need to do anything else.
• Efficiency. With little learning effort you can do more.

Yes, I said above in the thread that I cannot see the right blinker led on because of the steering wheel. I got used to it, just a minor drawback.

In one older car I owned a while back, there was also an innovative system for commanding the high-beams. The stalk was also non-retentive. One click high-beams, one click low-beams. Very efficient. I could not go back to the retentive system, because I could never find the stalk when I needed it.

And yes, I know what can be hard to learn. The two stages on each direction can be difficult to explain and learn. I did not have a problem and it seems natural. I have no ideea why it took so long to have this.

My two cents.

Ricracing

Dear Ray,

If you only knew what they did...

I suppose we're still discussing the E60 blinker logistics.

I'm pretty happy with the E60 system but for hasty and/or large
moves it doesn't work that well, since it needes a controlled move.

Would it be better that the E60 turnsignal switch would be like
a) old school trucks, on/off by hand
b) automatic, controlled by brain
c) like the MB one, all controlls in a stick
d) who gives a shit
e) like it was in the E39
f) own choice

Ray Hull

Big_ipaq,
Thanks for your long discourse and philosophy. Maybe if you read carefully, what I said, you could have saved yourself some rhetoric.

Your umbrage at my figurative and common phrase "safety nazi" is understandable; the Nazis were the guys who tried to improve their gene pool weren't they? I'm sure you and Subter, being so smart, can connect those references.

Finally, I take the word of seasoned writers and correspondents at face value, and assumed others here would too. That's all I was expressing. Unfortunately, it caused a torrent of explanation and lecture from you. So, for your own peace of mind, I'll advise you as I did Vern: Overlook my posts, PLEASE!

Ray Hull