EURO NCAP Crash Test Results for E60
12-01-2004, 04:31 AM
#121
Senior Members
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 535d Sport in Carbon Black / high gloss shadow line and beige leather / dark poplar with professional nav, bluetooth phone prep, CD changer, bi-xenon adaptive headlamps, servotronic steering, folding mirrors, heated comfort seats, TV, extended voice control and Logic 7 hifi.
Originally Posted by Gizmo' date='Dec 1 2004, 01:09 PM
I suspect it is even MORE possible to design a car that performs well in the tests, AND in real word incidents. Other automakers appear to have done so.
I choose to be in that car !!!
I choose to be in that car !!!
[snapback]62893[/snapback]
.Unless you have scientific analysis of actual accident death / injury rates against NCAP ratings, I don't see how you can make this comment?
12-01-2004, 04:35 AM
#122
Contributors
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 4,672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: E90 M3
Model Year: 2011
Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Dec 1 2004, 05:28 AM
@kscarrol
BMW found it necessary to redesign the E60 after it received 3stars in the EuroNCAP. WHY? If the car is that safe (like BMW is trying to tell us), why did they redesigned it?
KC:? The same reason they did it on the E39.? You seem to gloss that over as being OK and that BMW actions here are somehow new or unprecedented.? The allowance of modifications is apparently common among many car makers, just not BMW. That fact that BMW has done this to the E60 is suddenly ground for a total recall of the model.? And again no one has explained to me or anyone else how 3 stars = UNSAFE but 4 stars = TOTALL SAFE.? You guys are making this such a black and white issue over the 3 vs. 4 stars.
The answer is probably that rumour, what is out there. After the E60 received only 3stars, the German T?V checked the next to be released E60, the M5, and refused it! BMW is telling everybody that they had other problems, like the gearbox... Now, gimme a break... The gear box? The M5 is undergoing tests for 2 years or even more and NOW they have problems with the gear box? I don't think so. For me this is another hint, that there is something wrong with the design and BMW needs to redesign the car.
KC:? Can't speak to this, not familiar w/ what's going on with the M5, but again, get me some facts and I'll gladly listen to them.
By looking at the numbers, the steering wheel moved 14mm in the re-test, after it has been redesigned! For me it looks like there are serious problems!
KC:? "Looks"?? This my point.? How much did it move in the first test???? Don't know? Neither do I, but had it moved 30 MM in the first test and they got it down to 14 MM in the second w/ the modifications, then yes there is an issue.? But neither of us knows!? And frankly, 14 MM is only 1/2 an inch, not a that large a move for the type of impact we're talking about.? Get me the first test data and I will gladly concede this point.
Now, you are asking about the differences in IIHS and EuroNCAP...
I can't tell you, since I am not familiar with IIHS.
But IIHS gave it a "best-buy", you said. OK. Just by looking at that result compared to the result of EuroNCAP, where BMW is not as good as others in their class, I think EuroNCAP crash tests are made for more severe accidents, probably at higher speeds (because it's Europe and we drive faster?
)... But I really don't know!!!
KC:? I agree, none of us knows, but again you help me make my point!
And that's not the point! The point is, as Gizmo said, if the E60 would be so safe, why did BMW redesigned it for another test? There must be something severely wrong!
And... you can expect the E60 to be better or the same as the E39. And BMW failed to make it better!
KC:? Agreed about being the same or better than the E39.? I never said it shouldn't be.
Now I am just concerned about what happens if I crash, since my E60 is not redesigned!? If they would release the results from the first test in which the E60 received 3stars, it would maybe show that the E60 is safe, even with 3stars. But since BMW and EuroNCAP are hiding those results, nobody can compare the two tests! And that is proof enough to say, BMW is scared about the first results and don't want anybody to see them... And that's what's scaring me...
BTW, this thread is not unfriendly at all, IMHO...?
KC:? Agreed Iceman, accept my apologies.? A poor choice of words on my part, should have use "emotionally charged".? But emotions are running high about something that frankly we all have very little real information on.? People are making wild claims like they want a new car over this issue.? Simply ridiculous IMHO.
BMW found it necessary to redesign the E60 after it received 3stars in the EuroNCAP. WHY? If the car is that safe (like BMW is trying to tell us), why did they redesigned it?
KC:? The same reason they did it on the E39.? You seem to gloss that over as being OK and that BMW actions here are somehow new or unprecedented.? The allowance of modifications is apparently common among many car makers, just not BMW. That fact that BMW has done this to the E60 is suddenly ground for a total recall of the model.? And again no one has explained to me or anyone else how 3 stars = UNSAFE but 4 stars = TOTALL SAFE.? You guys are making this such a black and white issue over the 3 vs. 4 stars.
The answer is probably that rumour, what is out there. After the E60 received only 3stars, the German T?V checked the next to be released E60, the M5, and refused it! BMW is telling everybody that they had other problems, like the gearbox... Now, gimme a break... The gear box? The M5 is undergoing tests for 2 years or even more and NOW they have problems with the gear box? I don't think so. For me this is another hint, that there is something wrong with the design and BMW needs to redesign the car.
KC:? Can't speak to this, not familiar w/ what's going on with the M5, but again, get me some facts and I'll gladly listen to them.
By looking at the numbers, the steering wheel moved 14mm in the re-test, after it has been redesigned! For me it looks like there are serious problems!
KC:? "Looks"?? This my point.? How much did it move in the first test???? Don't know? Neither do I, but had it moved 30 MM in the first test and they got it down to 14 MM in the second w/ the modifications, then yes there is an issue.? But neither of us knows!? And frankly, 14 MM is only 1/2 an inch, not a that large a move for the type of impact we're talking about.? Get me the first test data and I will gladly concede this point.
Now, you are asking about the differences in IIHS and EuroNCAP...
I can't tell you, since I am not familiar with IIHS.
But IIHS gave it a "best-buy", you said. OK. Just by looking at that result compared to the result of EuroNCAP, where BMW is not as good as others in their class, I think EuroNCAP crash tests are made for more severe accidents, probably at higher speeds (because it's Europe and we drive faster?
)... But I really don't know!!!KC:? I agree, none of us knows, but again you help me make my point!
And that's not the point! The point is, as Gizmo said, if the E60 would be so safe, why did BMW redesigned it for another test? There must be something severely wrong!
And... you can expect the E60 to be better or the same as the E39. And BMW failed to make it better!
KC:? Agreed about being the same or better than the E39.? I never said it shouldn't be.
Now I am just concerned about what happens if I crash, since my E60 is not redesigned!? If they would release the results from the first test in which the E60 received 3stars, it would maybe show that the E60 is safe, even with 3stars. But since BMW and EuroNCAP are hiding those results, nobody can compare the two tests! And that is proof enough to say, BMW is scared about the first results and don't want anybody to see them... And that's what's scaring me...
BTW, this thread is not unfriendly at all, IMHO...?
KC:? Agreed Iceman, accept my apologies.? A poor choice of words on my part, should have use "emotionally charged".? But emotions are running high about something that frankly we all have very little real information on.? People are making wild claims like they want a new car over this issue.? Simply ridiculous IMHO.
[snapback]62842[/snapback]
12-01-2004, 05:18 AM
#123
Members
Join Date: May 2004
Location: London UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clived,
Good points, I mean considering you are convinced you are right
I would reiterate my main point though. If BMW was utterly convinced that their car was flawless in the 1st place why undertaking very significant changes to retest the car to achieve a better rating?
I still don't buy the party line they serve by saying they develop a car for broader range of accidents. If it is that easy for many manufacturers to get 5 stars, why is it so difficult for BMW with a larger car than a 1 Series?
I have no doubt that if BMW is going through very significant changes so early in the car lifecycle, they have concerns about it, we are talking about expensive stuff here, probably involving some retooling on their production line...Not the kind of stuff one does 1 year after launching the car...
Of course, it is safer to be in a 5 Series rather than in a Renault Modus in a heavy accident but can't help but think that BMW is not coming clean on this...
If they are completely relaxed about how the car performed why not releasing the result of the initial test and stop speculations?
As an aside, unfortunately for us, countries with RHD cars, these tend to perform not as great as clearly the more extensive development is done using LHD vehicle. It probably got better than what it used to be but that might also have played in BMW defavour...It is the only RHD car which was crash tested in the exec cars category. Also another aggravating factor is how full the engine bay is hence why most car tested tend to have smaller engine clearly cost involved too but more crumple zone in the front.
Speaking of death trap can U say RHD E60 M5
Then again you can speed your way out of trouble
My 2c
Good points, I mean considering you are convinced you are right
I would reiterate my main point though. If BMW was utterly convinced that their car was flawless in the 1st place why undertaking very significant changes to retest the car to achieve a better rating?
I still don't buy the party line they serve by saying they develop a car for broader range of accidents. If it is that easy for many manufacturers to get 5 stars, why is it so difficult for BMW with a larger car than a 1 Series?
I have no doubt that if BMW is going through very significant changes so early in the car lifecycle, they have concerns about it, we are talking about expensive stuff here, probably involving some retooling on their production line...Not the kind of stuff one does 1 year after launching the car...
Of course, it is safer to be in a 5 Series rather than in a Renault Modus in a heavy accident but can't help but think that BMW is not coming clean on this...
If they are completely relaxed about how the car performed why not releasing the result of the initial test and stop speculations?
As an aside, unfortunately for us, countries with RHD cars, these tend to perform not as great as clearly the more extensive development is done using LHD vehicle. It probably got better than what it used to be but that might also have played in BMW defavour...It is the only RHD car which was crash tested in the exec cars category. Also another aggravating factor is how full the engine bay is hence why most car tested tend to have smaller engine clearly cost involved too but more crumple zone in the front.
Speaking of death trap can U say RHD E60 M5
Then again you can speed your way out of trouble My 2c
12-01-2004, 05:32 AM
#124
Senior Members
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 535d Sport in Carbon Black / high gloss shadow line and beige leather / dark poplar with professional nav, bluetooth phone prep, CD changer, bi-xenon adaptive headlamps, servotronic steering, folding mirrors, heated comfort seats, TV, extended voice control and Logic 7 hifi.
Originally Posted by cpd1' date='Dec 1 2004, 02:18 PM
Clived,
Good points, I mean considering you are convinced you are right?
Good points, I mean considering you are convinced you are right?
[snapback]62903[/snapback]
I still believe (and I guess that does remind us of the point that none of us know that the primary reason BMW would go to such efforts to improve the ratings is that, as it totally proven by this thread, the buying population is, rightly or wrongly, strongly influenced by Euro NCAP ratings. As I said, marketing dictating engineering changes. This doesn't mean that they car did not have good safety engineering in the first place.
I guess what it comes down to is that I just don't feel, 5 star rating or no 5 star rating, that the E60 is not amongst the safest cars available.
I'm guessing if you didn't really think so either, you'd not be driving you 545i at the moment?
Cheers, Clive
12-01-2004, 05:36 AM
#125
Senior Members
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lancashire (UK)
Posts: 442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
interesting comments. I still love the E60 but I think BMW need to say more about this and at the very least explain why they feel no recall is required.
I do not want the existing E60's to gain a bad reputation for safety but we all made a substantial financial investment in these cars and this at a time when BMW's profits are soaring.
BMW have issued recalls for a lot more trivial issues than this before.
I have now responded negatively to their email and will be escalating this within BMW, just to see how far I can take this. why not? i'm a consumer
I do not want the existing E60's to gain a bad reputation for safety but we all made a substantial financial investment in these cars and this at a time when BMW's profits are soaring.
BMW have issued recalls for a lot more trivial issues than this before.
I have now responded negatively to their email and will be escalating this within BMW, just to see how far I can take this. why not? i'm a consumer
12-01-2004, 05:39 AM
#126
Senior Members
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 535d Sport in Carbon Black / high gloss shadow line and beige leather / dark poplar with professional nav, bluetooth phone prep, CD changer, bi-xenon adaptive headlamps, servotronic steering, folding mirrors, heated comfort seats, TV, extended voice control and Logic 7 hifi.
Do we know exactly what we'd be asking them to change if there was a recall?
12-01-2004, 06:24 AM
#127
Members
Join Date: May 2004
Location: London UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by clived' date='Dec 1 2004, 08:32 AM
I'm guessing if you didn't really think so either, you'd not be driving you 545i at the moment?
[snapback]62905[/snapback]
There is no doubt that the marketing importance of the Euro NCAP is just huge these days, actually it is just a requirement now to have 5 star for any decent car.
IF BMW wants to calm down their worried customers, they should release a list of the changes they are implementing...However I am afraid that retrofit won't be an option for current owners, U might be lucky and get some or all changes implemented in your car though
BTW BMW itself benefited from EuroNCAP's generosity too in the past...
12-01-2004, 06:36 AM
#128
Members
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Uk
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 525, Dec 2003, Silver Grey, Black Dakota Leather, Bluetooth, Satnav, 18'' Runflats, Sunroof, Folding mirrors, Automatic
I may be duplicating what has been said earlier, but the E60 is on the Ncap website now:-
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...p?id1=4&id2=208
The first paragraph on this link may be an indication as to what was altered to achieve the result . Dosn't look bad ! Hope this is of use..
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_rat...p?id1=4&id2=208
The first paragraph on this link may be an indication as to what was altered to achieve the result . Dosn't look bad ! Hope this is of use..
12-01-2004, 07:16 AM
#129
Senior Members
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 535d Sport in Carbon Black / high gloss shadow line and beige leather / dark poplar with professional nav, bluetooth phone prep, CD changer, bi-xenon adaptive headlamps, servotronic steering, folding mirrors, heated comfort seats, TV, extended voice control and Logic 7 hifi.
Originally Posted by cpd1' date='Dec 1 2004, 03:24 PM
I used to have an RS4
12-01-2004, 07:20 AM
#130
Members
Join Date: May 2004
Location: London UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by clived' date='Dec 1 2004, 10:16 AM
A fellow Audi man - I don't know why we're aurgu, I mean discussing this anyway then!
[snapback]62923[/snapback]