geneclark

Before I write anything else I'd like to state my position - I don't believe that the e60 is an unsafe car. I'm bothered mostly by BMW:s response to the concerns raised. This brings me to...

northern monkey wrote:
* some manufacturers put main emphasis of vehicle design work on Euro NCAP compliance. BMW focus on real life accident situations based on results gained from internal accident research. Goal is to achieve a safe survival space in the passenger cell in much more severe circumstances.

This is complete and utter BS, "much more severe circumstances"!? Studies have proved strong correlations between lab test results and real world accident outcomes.

northern monkey wrote:
* offset frontal crashes as simulated by Euro NCAP, account for only 0.05 percent of accidents

and as simulated by IIHS. If the point of an offset frontal test was to simulate the most probable frontal crash then this would be totally upsetting, and both the IIHS and EuroNCAP front tests should be stopped at once.

northern monkey wrote:
* BMW's are sold across six continents which means they are subjected to more than 50 consumer protection and regulatory tests worldwide. Taking the USA as an example. Vehicles are tested at a significantly higher standard and at higher speeds. The E60 contains a rigid bodyshell designed to withstand significantly higher crash loads.

"Higher standards" and "higher speeds". Which tests are you/BMW referring to? The rigidity of the body shell has never been an issue.

northern monkey wrote:
* IF BMW designed vehicles solely to achieve 5 Star Euro NCAP results this could lead to disadvantages in other accident situations. Quoted example, a vehicle subjecting occupants to low deceleration values at 64 kph would score well in Euro NCAP, but would be perceived as lacking in strength at higher impact speeds. BMW's priority is to provide a stable occupant cell

Please explain this, because it doesn't make sense to me. Again, the rigidity of the body shell has never been an issue as far as I know.

northern monkey wrote:
* During the E60 retest the only changes made were to improve the score and did not increase the safety level of the vehicle, which still remain at a high standard (note US NCAP and IIHS tests). IIHS test corresponds to Euro NCAP test in terms of speed and test configuration.

Is the total score not related to the safety level!? Also, reread the last sentence...

northern monkey wrote:
* If BMW focused on only a few crash scenarios from a single testing body this would compromise safety overall.

I understand the point, but... It would depend on the quality of the scenarios rather than the absolute numbers or testing body.

Iceman

Yep. That's exactly wat I think too.

The Pentium Guy

Heh of course no car could survive that.....!

skaffa

That poor man forget to "duck and cover"!

Skaffa

Iceman

The sad part is that this guy was a firefighter on his way to work. He took Daddys car.
Maybe an SUV would've survived this crash at this site, since they are higher. But that is about the worst case accident you can have - side crash above the mirror...

cpd1

I would like to have that clarified too. I fail to see how a car not protecting its passengers as well as some competitors in a lower speed test, would fare better at a higher speed...Sure having a stable occupant cell is great but what is the use of it if the passengers inside get subjected to such high decelaration that they will sustain significant injuries....The least the car should do if designed for higher speed crashes would be to excel on a lower speed test. I don't know if BMW is hiding something but the party line they have been serving so far is certainly not convincing.

530E60NL

I think euroncap also looks on the force of impact you notice as an occupant. The less the car crumbles the harder the occupents will feel the crash. Maybe that will give the car a low rating because occupants wil feel more force???

firewired

You bring up an interesting point. I had to go back and look at the posted IIHS results on their website. They do focus a lot more on the damage / intrusion to the vehicle, but look at the BOTTOM of the results on the detail page, they also take into account the forces on the dummy like the EUROCAP.

IIHS results details: http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/htm...lglux_front.htm

cpd1

Yes EuroNCAP definitely looks at these values, hence my point that integrity of the cell is great but if the car transfer too much force to its occupants, that is a big problem (be it by not absorbing enough energy from the impact or having too many contact points with passengers). That seems what EuroNCAP flagged in its test. So BMW's argument that the car is designed for higher speed crashes isn't strong since the car does only an average job at lower speed, despite the many mods implemented to improve EuroNCAP rating....

northernmonkey

CPD1 & Geneclark

Totally agree with quotes you have both asked for further clarification on or think are BS but I cannot provide the answers as I do not have them, I simply edited a letter I received from BMW and posted a summary of it on here. If you want further clarification or wish to question some of the answers you will need to direct your requests to BMW yourselves and see what they come back with. I've spent enough time chasing them on this issue now and it seems to me existing cars will not be recalled so for me i have the answer i was looking for even if i do not like it.

cheers.