What the new F10 Really needs.
11-30-2009, 10:35 PM
#21
Contributors
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zoo York
Posts: 9,986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: Alpine White 2006 530Xi (SLD)
Originally Posted by Rudy' post='1065349' date='Nov 30 2009, 10:30 PM
I think "reliability" is a relative term. To me, a car that is unreliable does something like fails to start and/or leaves you stranded somewhere. Things like transmission slam, etc. that are often fixed via software, in my mind, don't count towards the car's reliablility factor. Clearly, the E60 is a very technologically advanced car with many computer/software controlled things. For the most part, things work very well but as we've seen from the early 2004 cars until now, there have been some significant software upgrades/fixes that have improved things a bunch.
Sure, the HPFP issue is one thing that would make the car unreliable but obviously, it doesn't affect all E60 cars, just the ones with that specific pump.
For me, my 2004 car, aside from software glitches early on, was pretty much as reliable as any Japanese car. My current 2008 car has been even better since the software glitches were reduced significantly and again, I've had no problems at all (other than stupid flat tires) with the car that I'd consider a reliability issue. Granted, I leased both cars while they were under warranty so I don't have the same experiences as others here who may have higher mileage cars, etc.
I expect the F10 to be as reliable as my first year, 2004 E60 but I expect less software glitches since the iDrive system used has been out already in the F01 7 Series, the 5GT, etc. (Remember that the E60 was the first "2nd generation" iDrive so we were the ones who helped them get the bugs out.)
I plan on getting an F10 in it's first MY (like I did with the E60) and I'm optimistic that I won't regret my choice...
Sure, the HPFP issue is one thing that would make the car unreliable but obviously, it doesn't affect all E60 cars, just the ones with that specific pump.
For me, my 2004 car, aside from software glitches early on, was pretty much as reliable as any Japanese car. My current 2008 car has been even better since the software glitches were reduced significantly and again, I've had no problems at all (other than stupid flat tires) with the car that I'd consider a reliability issue. Granted, I leased both cars while they were under warranty so I don't have the same experiences as others here who may have higher mileage cars, etc.
I expect the F10 to be as reliable as my first year, 2004 E60 but I expect less software glitches since the iDrive system used has been out already in the F01 7 Series, the 5GT, etc. (Remember that the E60 was the first "2nd generation" iDrive so we were the ones who helped them get the bugs out.)
I plan on getting an F10 in it's first MY (like I did with the E60) and I'm optimistic that I won't regret my choice...
Now, could you please condense the above into like 10-15 word sentence, preferably using short simple words - so that the rest of us, who don't wanna get a PhD in...
whatever it is you wanted to say - could read it too 
11-30-2009, 10:54 PM
#22
Senior Members
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scania, Scandinavia
Posts: 1,992
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: F11 -14
Originally Posted by v_therussian' post='1065503' date='Dec 1 2009, 08:35 AM
Now, could you please condense the above into like 10-15 word sentence, preferably using short simple words - so that the rest of us, who don't wanna get a PhD in... whatever it is you wanted to say - could read it too
whatever it is you wanted to say - could read it too 12 words.
11-30-2009, 11:03 PM
#23
Contributors
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zoo York
Posts: 9,986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: Alpine White 2006 530Xi (SLD)
Originally Posted by narvselius' post='1065515' date='Dec 1 2009, 02:54 AM
E60 good car. F10 probably even better car. Buy and be happy.
12 words.
12 words.
12-01-2009, 12:32 AM
#24
Members
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: May 2005 BMW 523i
Well, just to clarify, I am not a spammer. I have been lurking on this forum for a few years. Many forum-ers post excellent replies, and I find no need to add unnecessary comments; i am contented to just enjoy reading the responses.
I agree that reliability is subjective. But systematic failures of a particular component, may tend to indicate inadequecies in the design process. I am not qualified to judge, and will not attempt to do so.
Based on personal experince as well as anectodal experincence, the E60 has a rather mediocore reliablity record. Yes, people's perception of reliability, are varied and so are tolerance for failure, but a decent level of reliability surely isn't too much to expect?
My 2005 E60 523i (Yes this model exists for the uninformed), has had its fair share of trips to the workshop for software and mechanical failures
(ECU ; Water-Pump, air bag sensor, Camshaft Sensor malfunction , transmission slam, and the latest - ignition coil failure X 6). When it was 3 weeks old, the car failed in the middle of the highway( total engine shutdown), thankfully traffic was light and was able to pull over at the road shoulder. The dealer had to install a new ECU from Germany.
So what I just wish for in the new F10,is that it will be more reliable than the outgoing E60; with increased reliability, unnecessary trips to the dealer can be avoided, and the stress of worrying what is going to fail next, can be alleviated.
Just my 0.0002 Cents
I agree that reliability is subjective. But systematic failures of a particular component, may tend to indicate inadequecies in the design process. I am not qualified to judge, and will not attempt to do so.
Based on personal experince as well as anectodal experincence, the E60 has a rather mediocore reliablity record. Yes, people's perception of reliability, are varied and so are tolerance for failure, but a decent level of reliability surely isn't too much to expect?
My 2005 E60 523i (Yes this model exists for the uninformed), has had its fair share of trips to the workshop for software and mechanical failures
(ECU ; Water-Pump, air bag sensor, Camshaft Sensor malfunction , transmission slam, and the latest - ignition coil failure X 6). When it was 3 weeks old, the car failed in the middle of the highway( total engine shutdown), thankfully traffic was light and was able to pull over at the road shoulder. The dealer had to install a new ECU from Germany.
So what I just wish for in the new F10,is that it will be more reliable than the outgoing E60; with increased reliability, unnecessary trips to the dealer can be avoided, and the stress of worrying what is going to fail next, can be alleviated.
Just my 0.0002 Cents
12-01-2009, 01:09 AM
#25
Members
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 523i is also sold in the UK, 190BHP 2.5l Straight 6 (thats the current version).
Th problem with anecdote is that it can be largely based on info you glean from forum's, which are not necessarily fan clubs 100% of the time ;-) so people tend to come here with bad news and issues. In the UK, the 3 series, as an example outsells Ford's, it's that popular, yet the fleet mag's (FN50) say BMW is on of the most reliable brands (and these are not "subjective" customer Satisfaction surveys; they are actual scientific reliability scores). So I take heart from that.
Like all new models, the F10 will no doubt have some gremlins in it's first 2 years or so. That is perfectly normal. The 8 speed auto's are new, so that could be an area to watch, but the engines I believe are largely modified variants of the existing 3.0l ones (both petrol and diesel), and the turbo's too. So I expect these to be better. As for software - well these things are very tech/ICT based devices, which happen to have an engine and wheels, so I expect tweaks as things bed in and become apparent. A lot of the car's behaviour is governed electronically nowadays (engine mapping, gear changes/adaptiveness, throttle control, air/fuel mixture just to sight a few of many millions of calculations no doubt), and whilst BMW invest ?1m per day in R&D, they will also be trying to get the products into the real world asap.
I am so looking forward to the F10, now I just need to wait for a few years/LCI until it is perfected....
Th problem with anecdote is that it can be largely based on info you glean from forum's, which are not necessarily fan clubs 100% of the time ;-) so people tend to come here with bad news and issues. In the UK, the 3 series, as an example outsells Ford's, it's that popular, yet the fleet mag's (FN50) say BMW is on of the most reliable brands (and these are not "subjective" customer Satisfaction surveys; they are actual scientific reliability scores). So I take heart from that.
Like all new models, the F10 will no doubt have some gremlins in it's first 2 years or so. That is perfectly normal. The 8 speed auto's are new, so that could be an area to watch, but the engines I believe are largely modified variants of the existing 3.0l ones (both petrol and diesel), and the turbo's too. So I expect these to be better. As for software - well these things are very tech/ICT based devices, which happen to have an engine and wheels, so I expect tweaks as things bed in and become apparent. A lot of the car's behaviour is governed electronically nowadays (engine mapping, gear changes/adaptiveness, throttle control, air/fuel mixture just to sight a few of many millions of calculations no doubt), and whilst BMW invest ?1m per day in R&D, they will also be trying to get the products into the real world asap.
I am so looking forward to the F10, now I just need to wait for a few years/LCI until it is perfected....
12-01-2009, 03:44 AM
#26
Members
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2006 Black on Black 530xi. NAV, Prem, Cold weath...
Originally Posted by JeffNNJ' post='1065105' date='Nov 30 2009, 03:20 PM
I don't know. It seems like I have had a very different experience and probably not because I am a dealer. Wheels and tires aside, I have not had a single problem with either my '06 or my '08 550i. By contrast, my dad's '09 Lexus has been in the shop for a piece of trim falling off and rubbing against a tire and a failing satellite radio. I am not questioning Lexus reliability because I have heard from virtually everyone that it's great but so are my BMWs. On the other hand, I have no idea how anyone can say that they are jealous of Lexus owners for any reason besides price. My father's car is clearly a jacked up Camry. It's functionality, comfort and ride do not approach that of BMW. Not the same game, ballpark or even universe.
+1 on that!!! Lexus is a premium toyota. Nothing more Nothing less. Styling is boring. Driving one is really boring. I feel like when people buy a lexus it is only because of the safety that they are known for. If you want to experience what real driving is like stick to a BMW. Nothing compares IMHO.
Has anyone seen the meet the beckers from audi??? they are right on when it comes to the type that own a lexus and the type that own a mercedes. BMW is funny to watch because its true sometimes! LOL If you have not seen it look it up!
12-01-2009, 04:00 AM
#27
Senior Members
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: LA/Taiwan
Posts: 1,770
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
My Ride: E60
This original post feels like spam to me....there are only 3 posts and the first post is talking about reliablility? Sounds like someone from a mercedes forum.....plus, what is an 05 523i ?? Is that even an actual model?
For those who should know more about BMW's than they presently do
:The 523i is pretty widespread in parts around the world, for example, in my area, if you
see an E60, it's more than likely a 523i. You won't ever see a 550i. You'll see a few
M5's.
12-01-2009, 04:56 AM
#28
Senior Members
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scania, Scandinavia
Posts: 1,992
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: F11 -14
Originally Posted by v_therussian' post='1065518' date='Dec 1 2009, 09:03 AM
Well, I suppose we need to buy one to be able to find out - another good excuse to visit the dealer in March/April...
12-01-2009, 05:06 AM
#29
Contributors
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jambers' post='1064911' date='Nov 30 2009, 07:28 AM
Reliability Sheliabity 
I think what BMW needs, especially in UK, is Lexus like Customer Service. I think that would make all the difference. When dealers become defensive, don't have enough product knowledge, deal with warranty claims as though they are going against "reduction targets" (whether that is true or not), and don't bat on your side of the wicket (which is Cricket speak in the land of Blitey ) then you as the customer get fed up and walk away.
I know reliability is (in the words of Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond) "tedious" but when you look at the Lexus Owners club, so many people are defecting because of poor customer service at the hands of BMW and Audi dealerships. You buy a premium brand, pay premium prices and you are, I believe, entitled to Premium Customer Service.
It might be different in the land of Unc Sam, but here in the UK it is an issue...all this stuff about Swirl Flaps, those Alloys etc on watchdog, and you get the drift....
With my old Lexus, it had 2 full sets of alloys in 2.5 years due to laqcuer corrosion - not life threatening, just cosmetic. in a BMW with a cracked alloy? It would have been "my fault" for driving over a pot hole....
Mine runs perfectly other than the lack of drive when starting her up first thing (nothing in D, no creep for 5-10 seconds), and I have so much nervinous about running a complex BMW Diesel after the warranty is gone. It'll out handle any GS, bring a smile on my face at every corner, but I do fear that it could get very expensive one day...
I think what BMW needs, especially in UK, is Lexus like Customer Service. I think that would make all the difference. When dealers become defensive, don't have enough product knowledge, deal with warranty claims as though they are going against "reduction targets" (whether that is true or not), and don't bat on your side of the wicket (which is Cricket speak in the land of Blitey
) then you as the customer get fed up and walk away. I know reliability is (in the words of Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond) "tedious" but when you look at the Lexus Owners club, so many people are defecting because of poor customer service at the hands of BMW and Audi dealerships. You buy a premium brand, pay premium prices and you are, I believe, entitled to Premium Customer Service.
It might be different in the land of Unc Sam, but here in the UK it is an issue...all this stuff about Swirl Flaps, those Alloys etc on watchdog, and you get the drift....
With my old Lexus, it had 2 full sets of alloys in 2.5 years due to laqcuer corrosion - not life threatening, just cosmetic. in a BMW with a cracked alloy? It would have been "my fault" for driving over a pot hole....
Mine runs perfectly other than the lack of drive when starting her up first thing (nothing in D, no creep for 5-10 seconds), and I have so much nervinous about running a complex BMW Diesel after the warranty is gone. It'll out handle any GS, bring a smile on my face at every corner, but I do fear that it could get very expensive one day...
12-01-2009, 05:30 AM
#30
Originally Posted by Jambers' post='1064911' date='Nov 30 2009, 09:28 AM
Reliability Sheliabity
I think what BMW needs, especially in UK, is Lexus like Customer Service. I think that would make all the difference. When dealers become defensive, don't have enough product knowledge, deal with warranty claims as though they are going against "reduction targets" (whether that is true or not), and don't bat on your side of the wicket (which is Cricket speak in the land of Blitey ) then you as the customer get fed up and walk away.
I know reliability is (in the words of Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond) "tedious" but when you look at the Lexus Owners club, so many people are defecting because of poor customer service at the hands of BMW and Audi dealerships. You buy a premium brand, pay premium prices and you are, I believe, entitled to Premium Customer Service.
It might be different in the land of Unc Sam, but here in the UK it is an issue...all this stuff about Swirl Flaps, those Alloys etc on watchdog, and you get the drift....
With my old Lexus, it had 2 full sets of alloys in 2.5 years due to laqcuer corrosion - not life threatening, just cosmetic. in a BMW with a cracked alloy? It would have been "my fault" for driving over a pot hole....
Mine runs perfectly other than the lack of drive when starting her up first thing (nothing in D, no creep for 5-10 seconds), and I have so much nervinous about running a complex BMW Diesel after the warranty is gone. It'll out handle any GS, bring a smile on my face at every corner, but I do fear that it could get very expensive one day...
I think what BMW needs, especially in UK, is Lexus like Customer Service. I think that would make all the difference. When dealers become defensive, don't have enough product knowledge, deal with warranty claims as though they are going against "reduction targets" (whether that is true or not), and don't bat on your side of the wicket (which is Cricket speak in the land of Blitey
) then you as the customer get fed up and walk away. I know reliability is (in the words of Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond) "tedious" but when you look at the Lexus Owners club, so many people are defecting because of poor customer service at the hands of BMW and Audi dealerships. You buy a premium brand, pay premium prices and you are, I believe, entitled to Premium Customer Service.
It might be different in the land of Unc Sam, but here in the UK it is an issue...all this stuff about Swirl Flaps, those Alloys etc on watchdog, and you get the drift....
With my old Lexus, it had 2 full sets of alloys in 2.5 years due to laqcuer corrosion - not life threatening, just cosmetic. in a BMW with a cracked alloy? It would have been "my fault" for driving over a pot hole....
Mine runs perfectly other than the lack of drive when starting her up first thing (nothing in D, no creep for 5-10 seconds), and I have so much nervinous about running a complex BMW Diesel after the warranty is gone. It'll out handle any GS, bring a smile on my face at every corner, but I do fear that it could get very expensive one day...
When I was first shopping around, I almost bought a Lexus because the service from their staff was impeccable. I felt like a head of state at their dealership. BMW was lucky I liked the styling of the E60 better than the GS series. They lost me on the F10 tho.