lawguy

+1. The only people who think the 5 series is the "BMW flagship" are 5 owners. The rest of the world would consider the 7 series as the "flagship", just as the S class is the MB flagship. Its that simple. Now, "flagship" might not be the word we're really debating here. Perhaps the "premiere" BMW might be more apt, as the 5 combines performance with luxury, which in my subjective view, is the essence of the "premiere" car in any lineup. Others might differ.

Anyhow, following this thread (and this forum) has been amusing lately as so many people are ready to leap off a bridge. I admit, I've been one of them. I suppose we all should take a deep breath. I cant recall the last mainstream production car that wasnt fiercely debated - the new E class gets rave reviews by "critics", but for many people on MB boards (myself included), its hideous and the rear looks like a Honda. [Kinda like the F10 does...lol]. You name the car, and there's a debate.

Clearly, there is much opinion as to whether the F10 is really what any one of us hoped or wished it would be. Different folks want different things in their cars...whether you drive a 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, X or Z car. The 3 series might be "the best car" in BMW's lineup for some people - I can understand that. However, its clearly a subjective thing. I have spent quite a lot of time in the last few months behind the wheel of the M3 coupe. Its a great car, but clearly not something I would want to drive on a regular basis. Doesn't mean its not amazing, well designed or the like. Just not for me.

I'm initially bummed about the F10. Not sold on its looks and the so/so performance reviews have me anxious. Haven't driven it yet and will wait to do so until the sports package cars arrive at my dealer this fall. I wont be able to justify spending the dollars on an M5 car, which I am sure will be wicked, and just hope that I'll personally enjoy a manual transmission 550i enough to order one. I'm anything but certain at this point.

Cheers.

Diamond

Guys the bottom line is bmw is appealing to the masses, which makes financial sense, so they are not stupid however it is a different direction than what has gotten them to where they are. As some tv commercials used to state-bmw is a whole culture and no company has a following like bmw had with their fans. The bimmers have never had even close to the most horsepower or torque, never had the best 0-60 times but nonetheless typically were engineered where they could corner and perform around a track-hence making them true driving pleasures.

Poeple comment on "imrpoved suspension and chassis" but to me it is this step was needed just to deal with the 500 pounds more the f10 carries-Honestly no extra rigidity is needed over the e60-that is something that sounds good but what does that do for you? Does not effect any driving dynamics that you will ever see and likely would not effect accident protection. The susepnsion upgrade is only necessary to make a heavy car feel lighter-such as they have done in the x6m/x5m-the changes are not inherently "good" they are only new things that can make heavy cars perform the way a lighter car did with "normal suspension."

So IMO none of the mentioned upgrades are upgrades-they are compensations. As for the engines, they are awesome but any company has and is throwing FI on engines and making more hp and torque-big deal? Their engines do not stand out as miuch as they used to. You could NOT get any other engine like a bmw inline 4 NA engine-you simply could not get that in any other brand. Now you can get a FI engine making gobs of torque in every single car manufactuerer-big deal.

I ultimately think this will change bmw forever-this recent line of cars no longer appeals to the same group of guys who made up the hardcore passionate bimmer fans/cults/cultures. It is marketed to a person who has no passion or appreiation for the uniqueness of bmw and how great it really was.

Guys in one phrase to sum up the f10-it simply is NOT UNIQUE-in looks, engine, handling and performance. The e60 had the ultimate one of a kind look, handling for its size (had the best skidpad rating-on par with a boxster and no body roll), and had UNIQUE engines-the V10 M engine, the inline 6 N52 magnesium lightest engine in the world-NA inline 6-you could not find a competitor with anything like those

I dont care-I am glad to see people enjoy their f10 but now you can watch bmw blend into the rest of the car world-and that is ok for most people-but not the loyal enthusiasts who MADE bmw what it is today-they certainly did not get here because of luxury or "toys" or reliability--they are going away from their roots and that is NEVER a good idea in the long run for success.

Petes550i

I respect your opinion and being a current F10 owner, I'm obviously biased in my views but really, all this BMW doom-and gloom talk has been seen before and is just a big waste of time. I can't believe some people's memory is so short-lived. When Chris Bangle introduced the E60, enthusiasts all over came out of the wood-work and proclaimed BMW has failed.....it was the same talk: the E60 is too big, the E60 is too heavy, the E60 is too ugly, the E60 is too complicated, the E60 is not sporty enough, BMW will go bankrupt....blah,blah,blah.

Honestly, if BMW hasn't earned your trust after the trial and tribulation of the E60 era, I really don't know what will. The bottom line is, however, we live in a great time where the auto market is flooded with great cars to appease all sorts of tastes and preferences. If you don't like the F10 just get something else and be happy with it. What I hope doesn't happen is a bunch of guys who choose to stay in their E60's for the next 5-6 years (or whenever the next gen 5 series comes out) and then bitch and moan the whole time complaining about BMW or the F10 not satisfying their needs.

swajames

If you read the posts on the forum you'll see that people's memories aren't short-lived at all - there is a lot of discussion regarding the compare and contrast between the E60 and F10 launch from members here who remember that era well. The discussion now is not the same as it was when the E60 was launched - it is radically different. Whereas the E60 absolutely polarized opinion, the F10 discussions are simply lamenting what some see as an opportunity lost for BMW to continue to position the 5 as perhaps the ultimate car for the higher-end enthusiasts who also need a little practicality in their car. The weight, conservative styling, size increase and focus on form over function are regrettable, but something most of us can rationalize. Some will accept it, some will not, but no one is claiming the sky is falling. The discussions simply reflect a perspective that the F10 is, to some, perhaps an opportunity lost. If the E60 did anything it was set the expectations bar very high for the F10. BMW has largely delivered, of course, but it has made some design and engineering decisions that could be perceived as regressive rather than progressive. It is these that are, in the main, the subject of the current debate.

The trust comment is interesting. Even the best run companies make mistakes, and an intelligent buyer will place less emphasis on the past and will focus on the quality of the present. No one should be buying current product simply because they trusted a company in the past.

Diamond

I have to disagree with a couple posts above that was saying this was the same situation as when the e60 came out. The SOLE issues with the e60 was the styling-everything else about it was a huge step forward-all aluminum suspension, bigger track, longer wheel base and only very marginally heavier but still within 150 pounds of the 3 series-its not the lightest weight thing in the world but at 3600 pounds (I6 versions) compared with todays standard of 4500 pounds being the norm-it was acceptable.

The ride handled better than ever with the ARS-no body roll, amazing skidpad of .92 or so, had Idrive (while some hated it-was a first in the auto world and progressive), electric water pumps came a couple years later, use-based oil pump and the e60 drove better than any other 5 series before that.

The difference with the F10 is that style is only one thing people do not like. They do not like the weight, the lack of a good NA engine that is again a display of technology or a NA v8 engine, the electric steering and steering feel. Nothing else is "better" aside from "new technologY' to hide the 500 extra pounds in its handling.

I se it as a huge difference-I am not saying bmw will go under-but I think it will not longer be the company everyone looks to to be ahead of the game in engine design, style and handling-too many cars have caught up with it and its not leaping forward again. It will likely do well money wise which is smart by bmw for the short term-but longer term you really have to go back to your bread and butter and as this "new" generation of bmw buyers like this more conservative design-they are not loyalists like the previous bimmer people. The new generation will likely buy another brand and not stick with bmw. This in the long run with lose the brand loyalty it once had and only then will it see its demise. just my .02

Petes550i

To me, I don't see that much of a difference in the complaints when the E60 first came out to the F10 now. Yes, the degree of hate was a lot more intense when the E60 came out but basically, it was all about the same things: styling, size, weight, performance, complexity, etc.

I agree that no one should buy a car based on brand loyalty alone but at the same time, I think it's wrong to discredit BMW simply because they chose to follow current market conditions and appeal to a slightly different (and I would say larger) demographic audience. BMW is not a small, niche company like Porsche where they can focus all their resources on appealing to a select group of individuals. (Speaking of Porsche, even they are beginning to build models to appeal to a broader audience....look at the Cayenne and Panamera for example). During these hard economic times, I think it doesn't make any fiscal sense to build cars that only appeals to certain tastes.

Anyways, I sincerely hope though that this forum doesn't become another Roadfly offshoot and turn into one big troll and flame board where E60 guys come to "kick" the F10 on a daily basis. When I had my TL, I loved to visit Acurazine regularly because the mods there were pretty diligent in keeping the posts constructive and flame-free and I learned so much about my previous vehicle.

Diamond

Its frustrating to read your posts because you are not being objective. THe comparisons are not the same and things you say are untrue as I remember that tim clearly. The sole issue was the styling being ugly. The weight is barely different and never was an issue. All the things I mentioned were IMPROVED-there was no issue with its performance. The idrive overall was seen as complicated but that was global and not just the 5 series.

I guess we will agree to disagree but you are ignoring facts and coming up with untrue statements when its really pretty basic. The e60 was ugly to many but performed well beyond any previous 5 series and was progressive in every respect.

The f10 is ugly by some and not progressive in any respect and regression in some-

Petes550i

Well, I was a long-time Roadfly member when I had my 545i and I clearly remember being slammed not only for the cosmetics of the car but also the mechanicals as well. But hey, if people hate something, they'll find a reason for it whether it's true or not.

You may dislike the F10 but that's your problem. I think the F10 is stylish inside and out and more solid, refined, and comfortable than the E60 ever was.....I clearly believe that's progression.

Gene

can we please just close this thread already....funny how members want to avoid flame wars and/or turning this place to an RF style thread...and yet they continue to post

we all the know the OP's track record in terms of starting flame wars to the point of being banned...don't feed it....

Gene

the exact reverse can be said about you liking the f10...

yes, and that's your opinion, which you've stated repetitively throughout every single thread you have felt compelled to post in here in the f10 section...let it go..do not feed the trolls....



funny how any post can be interpreted so many different ways, where one sees discussion and opinion other's may see "bitching and moaning". Now you tell me which is a 5series.net member and which is an RF member...


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