peter griffin

I believe the improvement is there, compare to the E60 N54, but it will be much attractive if they can bump up the HP same as the 335is. I think more people will jump on it, because the HP gain will consider a major upgrade.
Just like the first two years of the E60, since it's a major cosmetic upgrade from E39, they left the engine alone, people still go for it because of the appearance, and careless on the HP.
Not in this case with the F10, the style is actually going back to conservative with 528, 535 that offer the same HP like the previous one. It just not as attractive for me, my 2 cents.

peter griffin

I feel the same way

Petes550i

Well you guys may feel that way but BMW doesn't. Just because a model has sold in large numbers doesn't make it a flagship. If you ask the 3 series guys, I'd bet some of them think of the 3 series as a flagship. A flagship is a car model that represents the very best in engineering and technology from the automaker, irregardless of volume. And that usually goes to the most expensive model in the lineup--the 7 series.

kscarrol

Totally agree Gene! We might as well be debating colors...

As usual, folks will speak with their wallets and sales will determine the F10's legacy. The fact that I have seen stories that F10 production through the end of 2010 is sold out tells me the car is selling well. As I have said repeatedly, it is a great car, just chasing a slightly different target audience than the E60.

peter griffin

Indeed

Gene

so the flagship is the most unattainable model line in the group, according to your definition that is. And we've all stated the the tech in the 5 is the same as the 7...so what are we debating about here?

Pete, I may have missed it somewhere, but was your previous car an e60? Like others have said the e60 and f10 are different in looks, tech, and suspension/handling/performance, but different does not have a negative connotation to some, including myself....

the differences for some are just too much to accept right now for some...

kscarrol

He did Gene. And I understand his defensive replies, been there done that back in 2004 on Roadfly! Unfortunately things like the ride and how the car feels, including the steering, are just as subjective as paint color. There are no objective measurements like acceleration times, you either like it or you don't. At the end of the day, as long as the F10 owners are happy with their cars, that is all that should matter to them. I know that's all I cared about in January 2004 when I took delivery of my 545!

Gene

exactly...

xenonrider

ride and steering are definitely not as subjective as paint color. There is good steering feel and bad steering feel. Bad steering may feel numb or have a lot of free play off-center. good steering is precise and give better feedback. There is a distinction between good and bad and the E60's steering feel is definitely better than the F10's. As with ride, good ride for a sports sedan is firm but not harsh and should absorb bumps well. Bad suspension can be too soft with too much body lean, or too harsh and bouncy over bumps.

also, adding 300-400 pounds to a car will make it handle worse. it's black and white. you can add more power or use better suspension to mask the weight gain, but it is still a step in the wrong direction.

these attributes cannot be measured with numbers, but there is definitely a distinction between good and bad. these characteristics also significantly affect the how a car drives and how much confidence a driver can have in his car. color, on the other hand, has zero affect on these attributes so they are not the same.

BMW claims to be the "ultimate driving machine" not because of it's acceleration times and cornering speeds. it has always been about the driving experience and the connection between driver and car.

sure, they may sell for F10's than E60's and people may learn to like the looks. however, better sales numbers does not mean a better car. otherwise, the camry is the best car in the US, bar none.

kscarrol

I did not say, nor mean to imply that there is not a distinction between good and bad. But it is subjective. All you have to do is look at the debate when Active Steering was first introduced on the E60. I did not like the feel of it and did not get it on either my 545 or 550. Many loved it wouldn't get a car without it. That is subjective and without a way to measure it and compare to others, it will ways be subjective.