Lap Times: F10 Vs. E60
#31
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You may as well be asking why the Top Gear times are all recorded by The Stig and not by Horst van Saurma ( Sport Auto's editor and test driver).
The data Shebs posted is no more and no less reliable than any other magazine test data. It is a point of reference, it is one of many, and it is what it is...
#32
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The data in post 27 relates to the Hockenheim Short track configuration. The Hockenheim Short track configuration is the Sport Auto test track. Put these two together, and you might just have the answer to your question ![Thumbsup](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/thumbsup.gif)
You may as well be asking why the Top Gear times are all recorded by The Stig.
The data Shebs posted is no more and no less reliable than any other magazine test data. It is a point of reference, it is one of many, and it is what it is...
![Thumbsup](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/thumbsup.gif)
You may as well be asking why the Top Gear times are all recorded by The Stig.
The data Shebs posted is no more and no less reliable than any other magazine test data. It is a point of reference, it is one of many, and it is what it is...
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
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#33
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Model Year: 2008
#34
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You may not like the outcomes, but the data is what it is... As always one can do one's own due diligence on the data, but the bottom line is that there's no reason for you to keep shooting the messenger - and you might be better served by trying to understand the message that is being conveyed before you do...
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#35
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bm323
You came to this thread with the believe that the OP did not verify the data of Hockenheim Short and Autozeitung test track.
You wrongfully thought that two of the most respected magazines in Germany have taken their lap times from fastestlaps.com.
You did not even realize that the two tests in Sport Auto (F10 530d vs. E60 530i) were done two months apart.
You are arguing that the magazines professional drivers might no have driven the cars to the limit.
You are trying to eleminate the validity of all the rings and magazines and TV shows in the world by claiming that different dates and drivers invalidate lap times.
In your post 27 that you are referring to, you have posted the most wrong post in this whole thread.
All the lap times in post 27 are very logical. Yes the 03' E46 M3 CSL is faster than the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit. The CSL had 360 hp and 1385 kg of weight (259.9 hp/ton), the 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit had 381 ps and 1474 kg (258.4 hp/ton). The difference in lap times is 0.2 s. What is wrong with that? Did you think that because a car is named Porsche, it has to be faster than a car called BMW? The 08' Porsche Carrera S 9(with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton) is faster than the M3 CSL if you check the lap times.
Furthermore, in Nordschleife (Nurburgring), the M3 CSL (360 hp and 1385 kg of weight and 259.9 ps/ton), achieved exactly the same lap time of 7:50 as the 08' Carrera S (with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton). It was 9 seconds faster than the 05' Carrera S on Nordschleife. Are you surprised now?
The same logic applies to the rest of your list in post 27.
You are the one who is throwing away subjective comments.
Before starting this post I read every word and chart of the 4 articles (2 in Autozeitung and 2 in Sport Auto) mentioned before I wrote the post. I even made sure that the cars under testing were equipped with the same suspension packages and tyre dimensions (both cars in Sport auto did not have ARS, however the F10 was equipped with Dynamic Damping Control, both cars in Autozeitung were equipped with ARS).
You came into the thread thinking that the OP did not do his homework, and you are just not able to back off.
You came to this thread with the believe that the OP did not verify the data of Hockenheim Short and Autozeitung test track.
You wrongfully thought that two of the most respected magazines in Germany have taken their lap times from fastestlaps.com.
You did not even realize that the two tests in Sport Auto (F10 530d vs. E60 530i) were done two months apart.
You are arguing that the magazines professional drivers might no have driven the cars to the limit.
You are trying to eleminate the validity of all the rings and magazines and TV shows in the world by claiming that different dates and drivers invalidate lap times.
In your post 27 that you are referring to, you have posted the most wrong post in this whole thread.
All the lap times in post 27 are very logical. Yes the 03' E46 M3 CSL is faster than the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit. The CSL had 360 hp and 1385 kg of weight (259.9 hp/ton), the 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit had 381 ps and 1474 kg (258.4 hp/ton). The difference in lap times is 0.2 s. What is wrong with that? Did you think that because a car is named Porsche, it has to be faster than a car called BMW? The 08' Porsche Carrera S 9(with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton) is faster than the M3 CSL if you check the lap times.
Furthermore, in Nordschleife (Nurburgring), the M3 CSL (360 hp and 1385 kg of weight and 259.9 ps/ton), achieved exactly the same lap time of 7:50 as the 08' Carrera S (with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton). It was 9 seconds faster than the 05' Carrera S on Nordschleife. Are you surprised now?
The same logic applies to the rest of your list in post 27.
You are the one who is throwing away subjective comments.
Before starting this post I read every word and chart of the 4 articles (2 in Autozeitung and 2 in Sport Auto) mentioned before I wrote the post. I even made sure that the cars under testing were equipped with the same suspension packages and tyre dimensions (both cars in Sport auto did not have ARS, however the F10 was equipped with Dynamic Damping Control, both cars in Autozeitung were equipped with ARS).
You came into the thread thinking that the OP did not do his homework, and you are just not able to back off.
#36
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#37
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bm323You came to this thread with the believe that the OP did not verify the data of Hockenheim Short and Autozeitung test track. Nope, I came in for a debate ![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You wrongfully thought that two of the most respected magazines in Germany have taken their lap times from fastestlaps.com. Yes, I was wrong in this.
You did not even realize that the two tests in Sport Auto (F10 530d vs. E60 530i) were done two months apart. The point is that the E60 was tested over years but not the F10. Also, 2 months don't mean a thing - does Sportauto have only 1 test driver for the track during that period? If so, yes then you are right![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You are arguing that the magazines professional drivers might no have driven the cars to the limit. Nope, that's not my point; I was illustrating a point. Different drivers drive differently.
You are trying to eleminate the validity of all the rings and magazines and TV shows in the world by claiming that different dates and drivers invalidate lap times. Nope, you're off the mark. It's your interpretation of the data that's in issue, not theirs. The point is that there would have been many laptimes for the E60 but not the F10.
In your post 27 that you are referring to, you have posted the most wrong post in this whole thread. The following statements "Ok, I stand corrected
So would it be correct to say that for Hockenheim http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.htmlmost of the drivers who posted the lap times are from sportauto and which drivers are different, with lap times as far back as 1993 (including the E60 for years) and your analysis is based on the F10's lap time which could have been recorded only the past, say 2 months?!" and "And likewise, any car positioned higher for the Autozeitung test track http://www.fastestla...om/track24.html is sportier, stabler, and handles better?" are not wrong, are they? Your interpretation of the data is that the F10 performed "underwhelmingly" because its laptime (which could only have been tested in the say, past say 2 months) was 1.9 seconds slower than the E60, by comparing the F10 530d vs. the E60 530i, and the same timing for the F10 535i vs. the E60 535d.
All the lap times in post 27 are very logical. Yes the 03' E46 M3 CSL is faster than the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit. The CSL had 360 hp and 1385 kg of weight (259.9 hp/ton), the 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit had 381 ps and 1474 kg (258.4 hp/ton). The difference in lap times is 0.2 s. What is wrong with that? Did you think that because a car is named Porsche, it has to be faster than a car called BMW? Nope
The 08' Porsche Carrera S 9(with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton) is faster than the M3 CSL if you check the lap times.Furthermore, in Nordschleife (Nurburgring), the M3 CSL (360 hp and 1385 kg of weight and 259.9 ps/ton), achieved exactly the same lap time of 7:50 as the 08' Carrera S (with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton). It was 9 seconds faster than the 05' Carrera S on Nordschleife. Are you surprised now? If you say that because a car's laptime tested over years is faster than another tested over 2 months by likely different drivers mean that the car with the shorter lap time is stabler, performs and handles better
than I don't have further to add ![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
The same logic applies to the rest of your list in post 27. Likewise![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You are the one who is throwing away subjective comments. Nope
Before starting this post I read every word and chart of the 4 articles (2 in Autozeitung and 2 in Sport Auto) mentioned before I wrote the post. I even made sure that the cars under testing were equipped with the same suspension packages and tyre dimensions (both cars in Sport auto did not have ARS, however the F10 was equipped with Dynamic Damping Control, both cars in Autozeitung were equipped with ARS). Your own interpretation based on different engines with different performance at different speeds, by likely different drivers, one over years and the other within a period of 2 months ![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You came into the thread thinking that the OP did not do his homework, and you are just not able to back off. You are mistaken, I came in for a debate as your interpretation of the data is off and I would immediately accept I'm mistaken if shown to be so![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You wrongfully thought that two of the most respected magazines in Germany have taken their lap times from fastestlaps.com. Yes, I was wrong in this.
You did not even realize that the two tests in Sport Auto (F10 530d vs. E60 530i) were done two months apart. The point is that the E60 was tested over years but not the F10. Also, 2 months don't mean a thing - does Sportauto have only 1 test driver for the track during that period? If so, yes then you are right
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You are arguing that the magazines professional drivers might no have driven the cars to the limit. Nope, that's not my point; I was illustrating a point. Different drivers drive differently.
You are trying to eleminate the validity of all the rings and magazines and TV shows in the world by claiming that different dates and drivers invalidate lap times. Nope, you're off the mark. It's your interpretation of the data that's in issue, not theirs. The point is that there would have been many laptimes for the E60 but not the F10.
In your post 27 that you are referring to, you have posted the most wrong post in this whole thread. The following statements "Ok, I stand corrected
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
All the lap times in post 27 are very logical. Yes the 03' E46 M3 CSL is faster than the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit. The CSL had 360 hp and 1385 kg of weight (259.9 hp/ton), the 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit had 381 ps and 1474 kg (258.4 hp/ton). The difference in lap times is 0.2 s. What is wrong with that? Did you think that because a car is named Porsche, it has to be faster than a car called BMW? Nope
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
The same logic applies to the rest of your list in post 27. Likewise
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You are the one who is throwing away subjective comments. Nope
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
You came into the thread thinking that the OP did not do his homework, and you are just not able to back off. You are mistaken, I came in for a debate as your interpretation of the data is off and I would immediately accept I'm mistaken if shown to be so
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
#38
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All the lap times in post 27 are very logical. Yes the 03' E46 M3 CSL is faster than the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit. The CSL had 360 hp and 1385 kg of weight (259.9 hp/ton), the 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit had 381 ps and 1474 kg (258.4 hp/ton). The difference in lap times is 0.2 s. What is wrong with that? Did you think that because a car is named Porsche, it has to be faster than a car called BMW? The 08' Porsche Carrera S 9(with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton) is faster than the M3 CSL if you check the lap times.Furthermore, in Nordschleife (Nurburgring), the M3 CSL (360 hp and 1385 kg of weight and 259.9 ps/ton), achieved exactly the same lap time of 7:50 as the 08' Carrera S (with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton). It was 9 seconds faster than the 05' Carrera S on Nordschleife. Are you surprised now?
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
And following your analysis, 59.BMW M3 CSL (E46) is sportier, more stable, and handles better than eg
63.Porsche 997 Carrera S (factory kit 381 PS)
66.Porsche Cayman S(facelift) PDK
76.BMW M3 (E92) DKG
78.BMW M3 (E92)
104.Mercedes C 63 AMG
114.Porsche Cayman S
133.Porsche 997 Carrera (2008 facelift) etc?
63.Porsche 997 Carrera S (factory kit 381 PS)
66.Porsche Cayman S(facelift) PDK
76.BMW M3 (E92) DKG
78.BMW M3 (E92)
104.Mercedes C 63 AMG
114.Porsche Cayman S
133.Porsche 997 Carrera (2008 facelift) etc?
#39
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My approach concerning the G forces and slalom speeds and cornering stability is completely legitimate. Since both cars were equipped with the same tyre tread width and suspension packages, the difference in the engines will be of minimal effect (although both cars were extremely close in terms acceleration up to 180 km/h, which even helps in normalizing the test reaults). The engine weight puts the F10 at and advantage due to the lower weight at the nose and the better front/rear weight distribution since the diesel engine block is made of cast iron and is heavier than the petrol engine block that is made of aluminum and magnesium alloy.
The Sport Auto Test was done by the same driver within two months period. His name is Horst von Saurma. His lap times on the Nurburgring are among the most famous ones in the world Nürburgring lap times. His Hockenheim lap times are among the most widely used lap times in the world for reference.
But again you will not be convinced by the Wikipedia articles. You will come back arguing that Wikipedia can be written by anyone, and revised by illegitimate people, and that the information is Wikipedia is not accurate, or even the information across the whole internet is not very accurate.
And because of this attitude, I have a very good idea for you.
Please start writing letters to all the magazines and TV shows in the world telling them to start collecting all the old cars they already tested and test them all on one day, with the same driver, with the same tyres type, and the same tyres size, and exactly the same amount of fuel, and same options, and the same sun exposure, and exactly the same track temperature. Also all the cars should have the same kilometers on the dial, so that we ensure that they have same wear and tear on the motor. Or they should even put all the cars on the dyno to make sure that they match the manufacturers power and torque claims.
I even have a better idea.
Please start writing letters to Top Gear (Show and Magazine), AutoCar, Evo Magazine, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Autozeitung, Sport Auto, and even to the adminstrators of Nordschleife, and tell them that you demand that they immeadiately stop doing the track tests since all the lap times they recorded are erroneous according to your recently discovered theory
. I mean why should you accept all of these magazines trying to mislead the poor public with their erroneous data that was compiled across a very long duration of years
.
In the meantime, I will enjoy the support of the rest of the members of this great forum.
The Sport Auto Test was done by the same driver within two months period. His name is Horst von Saurma. His lap times on the Nurburgring are among the most famous ones in the world Nürburgring lap times. His Hockenheim lap times are among the most widely used lap times in the world for reference.
But again you will not be convinced by the Wikipedia articles. You will come back arguing that Wikipedia can be written by anyone, and revised by illegitimate people, and that the information is Wikipedia is not accurate, or even the information across the whole internet is not very accurate.
And because of this attitude, I have a very good idea for you.
Please start writing letters to all the magazines and TV shows in the world telling them to start collecting all the old cars they already tested and test them all on one day, with the same driver, with the same tyres type, and the same tyres size, and exactly the same amount of fuel, and same options, and the same sun exposure, and exactly the same track temperature. Also all the cars should have the same kilometers on the dial, so that we ensure that they have same wear and tear on the motor. Or they should even put all the cars on the dyno to make sure that they match the manufacturers power and torque claims.
I even have a better idea.
Please start writing letters to Top Gear (Show and Magazine), AutoCar, Evo Magazine, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Autozeitung, Sport Auto, and even to the adminstrators of Nordschleife, and tell them that you demand that they immeadiately stop doing the track tests since all the lap times they recorded are erroneous according to your recently discovered theory
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
In the meantime, I will enjoy the support of the rest of the members of this great forum.
#40
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And by the way, for one who attributes and elevates his personal interpretation of data to leading automags, pls do not assume you know me and be presumptuous of how I would debate. Since you say that the driver is the same, I accept but your far inadequate and immature response still begs for much
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