Lap Times: F10 Vs. E60
07-30-2010, 10:02 AM
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If you check the Autozeitung Site site, you will see that all of these lap times are correct. They were all taken at autozeitung test track. The same applies for the Hockenheim short for Sport Auto magazine.
Therefore the positions are roughly correct. If there will be a variation, it would by few postions due to new track times not included in the fastest laps site.
Therefore the positions are roughly correct. If there will be a variation, it would by few postions due to new track times not included in the fastest laps site.
I was checking fastestlaps.com and came up with the only two tracks that had both the F10 and E60:
1. Autozeitung Test Track.
2. Hockenheim Short.
1. Autozeitung Test Track.
2. Hockenheim Short.
For Hockenheim Short, likewise at http://www.fastestlaps.com/addcar.html
Go to your webpage for each of your 2 links above and check the bottom.
07-30-2010, 10:07 AM
#22
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"Not driven to its limit by another driver" 
. I won't comment.
Anja Wassertheurer is the editor of both articles. Please check the bottom of both articles.
The 535d test was done in April 2010 and the 535i test was done in June 2010. I can not confirm from the articles whether the exact same driver has driven both cars. But due to the short time difference between the two tests (2 months), it could very well be the same driver.
These lap times are taken after extensive testing, it is not a one lap thing.
In general, claiming that a lap time is irrelevant just because conditions are different, would just eleminate the validity of all the lap times in the world including the Nurburgring and all magazines or tv shows watched.
. I won't comment.Anja Wassertheurer is the editor of both articles. Please check the bottom of both articles.
The 535d test was done in April 2010 and the 535i test was done in June 2010. I can not confirm from the articles whether the exact same driver has driven both cars. But due to the short time difference between the two tests (2 months), it could very well be the same driver.
These lap times are taken after extensive testing, it is not a one lap thing.
In general, claiming that a lap time is irrelevant just because conditions are different, would just eleminate the validity of all the lap times in the world including the Nurburgring and all magazines or tv shows watched.
07-30-2010, 11:07 AM
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Where was the following information obtained : "The E60 530i has scored the 138th position with 1:46.2 while the F10 530d has been timed at 181st position with 1:48.1 s."? Aren't they from the links mentioned above and which was posted by different drivers and the list compiled over years?
For your first link above, see http://www.fastestlaps.com/addcar.html found at the bottom of your link
For your second link above, see http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html found at the bottom of your link
For your first link above, see http://www.fastestlaps.com/addcar.html found at the bottom of your link
For your second link above, see http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html found at the bottom of your link
and http://www.fastestlaps.com/addlaptime.html for bottom link
07-30-2010, 04:06 PM
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I understand your point about fastestlaps.com, and I know that anyone can add laptimes there. But I was using this site as a compilation of lap times to be easier to the forum members to check the different lap times by referring to the position than going and checking the German sites. I did not mean to say that the position on the list meant anything if that is your concern.
Please diregard the fastestlaps.com times (that is just for you since you don't trust them although I confirmed that they are all correct) and check the following link for Sport Auto lap times. You will find them identical to fastestlaps.com.
Sport Auto Hockenheim Short Lap Times
Please see the below tables regarding the Autozeitung tests.
E60 530i Autozeitung Test
BMW E60 530i Driving Dynamics
Handling 89/150
Slalom 74/100
Steering 89/100
Straight 37/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 102/150
Stopping distance warm 94/150
Traction 38/100
Driving Safety 122/150
Tropic 10/25
Total 676/1000
F10 530d Autozeitung Test
BMW F10 530d Driving Dynamics
Handling 82/150
Slalom 62/100
Steering 91/100
Straight 43/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 76/150
Stopping distance warm 90/150
Traction 41/100
Driving Safety 125/150
Tropic 9/25
Total 640/1000
The straight line acceleration and driving safety of the F10 is better, while all the other handling factors are in favor of the E60 (even the braking distances!).
Do you think that Autozeitung and Sport Auto have any motives to conclude that the E60 is dynamically better than the F10?
Please diregard the fastestlaps.com times (that is just for you since you don't trust them although I confirmed that they are all correct) and check the following link for Sport Auto lap times. You will find them identical to fastestlaps.com.
Sport Auto Hockenheim Short Lap Times
Please see the below tables regarding the Autozeitung tests.
E60 530i Autozeitung Test
BMW E60 530i Driving Dynamics
Handling 89/150
Slalom 74/100
Steering 89/100
Straight 37/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 102/150
Stopping distance warm 94/150
Traction 38/100
Driving Safety 122/150
Tropic 10/25
Total 676/1000
F10 530d Autozeitung Test
BMW F10 530d Driving Dynamics
Handling 82/150
Slalom 62/100
Steering 91/100
Straight 43/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 76/150
Stopping distance warm 90/150
Traction 41/100
Driving Safety 125/150
Tropic 9/25
Total 640/1000
The straight line acceleration and driving safety of the F10 is better, while all the other handling factors are in favor of the E60 (even the braking distances!).
Do you think that Autozeitung and Sport Auto have any motives to conclude that the E60 is dynamically better than the F10?
07-30-2010, 10:15 PM
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I understand your point about fastestlaps.com, and I know that anyone can add laptimes there. But I was using this site as a compilation of lap times to be easier to the forum members to check the different lap times by referring to the position than going and checking the German sites. I did not mean to say that the position on the list meant anything if that is your concern.Please diregard the fastestlaps.com times (that is just for you since you don't trust them although I confirmed that they are all correct) and check the following link for Sport Auto lap times. You will find them identical to fastestlaps.com.
Please see the below tables regarding the Autozeitung tests.
E60 530i Autozeitung Test
BMW E60 530i Driving Dynamics
Handling 89/150
Slalom 74/100
Steering 89/100
Straight 37/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 102/150
Stopping distance warm 94/150
Traction 38/100
Driving Safety 122/150
Tropic 10/25
Total 676/1000
F10 530d Autozeitung Test
BMW F10 530d Driving Dynamics
Handling 82/150
Slalom 62/100
Steering 91/100
Straight 43/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 76/150
Stopping distance warm 90/150
Traction 41/100
Driving Safety 125/150
Tropic 9/25
Total 640/1000
E60 530i Autozeitung Test
BMW E60 530i Driving Dynamics
Handling 89/150
Slalom 74/100
Steering 89/100
Straight 37/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 102/150
Stopping distance warm 94/150
Traction 38/100
Driving Safety 122/150
Tropic 10/25
Total 676/1000
F10 530d Autozeitung Test
BMW F10 530d Driving Dynamics
Handling 82/150
Slalom 62/100
Steering 91/100
Straight 43/50
Brake dosage 21/25
cold stopping distance 76/150
Stopping distance warm 90/150
Traction 41/100
Driving Safety 125/150
Tropic 9/25
Total 640/1000
07-31-2010, 05:20 AM
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Well, if you agree that the fastestlaps.com times are inserted by anyone ie different drivers over a period of years, and fastestlaps.com times are identical to Sport Auto lap times, this would have to mean that the latter must have taken from the former, and such lap times are of no value for comparison of the 2 cars.
Are the points given above given by the same driver testing the 2 cars back to back? And even if they were, from the automags, there are many more positive than negative reviews. These different opinion are subjective, and the analysis upon which this thread is based, is subjective.
Are the points given above given by the same driver testing the 2 cars back to back? And even if they were, from the automags, there are many more positive than negative reviews. These different opinion are subjective, and the analysis upon which this thread is based, is subjective.
What you claim in your post above is completely wrong: "This would have to mean that the latter must have taken from the former". It is the other way around. Sport Auto tests the cars on daily basis on Hockecnheim Short and post the results in their monthly issue.
07-31-2010, 06:39 AM
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The fastestlaps.com times are taken from the Sport Auto Magazine, not the other way around. I can't believe that you did not see the column that specifies the tester!What you claim in your post above is completely wrong: "This would have to mean that the latter must have taken from the former". It is the other way around. Sport Auto tests the cars on daily basis on Hockecnheim Short and post the results in their monthly issue.
So would it be correct to say that for Hockenheim http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html most of the drivers who posted the lap times are from sportauto and which drivers are different, with lap times as far back as 1993 (including the E60 for years) and your analysis is based on the F10's lap time which could have been recorded only the past, say 2 months?!And following your analysis, 59.BMW M3 CSL (E46) is sportier, stabler, and handles better than eg
63.Porsche 997 Carrera S (factory kit 381 PS)
66.Porsche Cayman S(facelift) PDK
76.BMW M3 (E92) DKG
78.BMW M3 (E92)
104.Mercedes C 63 AMG
114.Porsche Cayman S
133.Porsche 997 Carrera (2008 facelift) etc?
And likewise, any car positioned higher for the Autozeitung test track http://www.fastestla...om/track24.html is sportier, stabler, and handles better?
07-31-2010, 06:52 AM
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ps and you've not replied to "Are the points given above given by the same driver testing the 2 cars back to back? And even if they were, from the automags, there are many more positive than negative reviews. These different opinion are subjective, and the analysis upon which this thread is based, is subjective."
Does it mean that you are the one who is wrong?
Does it mean that you are the one who is wrong?
07-31-2010, 06:56 AM
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bm323, I am struggling to see where you are going with this. Shebs' data is perfectly legitimate, the fastest laps website simply organizes test data by either car or by track so you can make a cross-comparison.
For any given car you can check the fastest recorded time around the tracks for which data is available or, alternatively, for any given track - such as the Nurburgring, Top Gear test track, Autozeitung test track etc - you can view the fastest recorded laps in order. It should not be a surprise to you that on the Sport Auto track or the Autozeitung track that all times are recorded by the magazines - it is their track... It is the same with the Top Gear track - virtually every time is attributed to The Stig. Shebs' data is simply the fastest lap for the cars in question for the tracks in question.
You may not like the outcomes, but the data is what it is. Shebs' point is simply that the test data indicates that the E60 and F10 are broadly comparable in their track numbers for those given tracks. You can argue different days, different drivers, but the data remains broadly valid as the best recorded time for the car for the track in question. As always one can do one's own due diligence on the data, but the bottom line is that there's no reason for you to keep shooting the messenger - and you might be better served by trying to understand the message that is being conveyed before you do...
For any given car you can check the fastest recorded time around the tracks for which data is available or, alternatively, for any given track - such as the Nurburgring, Top Gear test track, Autozeitung test track etc - you can view the fastest recorded laps in order. It should not be a surprise to you that on the Sport Auto track or the Autozeitung track that all times are recorded by the magazines - it is their track... It is the same with the Top Gear track - virtually every time is attributed to The Stig. Shebs' data is simply the fastest lap for the cars in question for the tracks in question.
You may not like the outcomes, but the data is what it is. Shebs' point is simply that the test data indicates that the E60 and F10 are broadly comparable in their track numbers for those given tracks. You can argue different days, different drivers, but the data remains broadly valid as the best recorded time for the car for the track in question. As always one can do one's own due diligence on the data, but the bottom line is that there's no reason for you to keep shooting the messenger - and you might be better served by trying to understand the message that is being conveyed before you do...
07-31-2010, 07:03 AM
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bm323, I am struggling to see where you are going with this. Shebs' data is perfectly legitimate, the fastest laps website simply organizes test data by either car or by track so you can make a cross-comparison.For any given car you can check the fastest recorded time around the tracks for which data is available or, alternatively, for any given track - such as the Nurburgring, Top Gear test track, Autozeitung test track etc - you can view the fastest recorded laps in order. It should not be a surprise to you that on the Sport Auto track or the Autozeitung track that all times are recorded by the magazines - it is their track... It is the same with the Top Gear track - virtually every time is attributed to The Stig. Shebs' data is simply the fastest lap for the cars in question for the tracks in question. You may not like the outcomes, but the data is what it is. Shebs' point is simply that the test data indicates that the E60 and F10 are broadly comparable in their track numbers for those given tracks. You can argue different days, different drivers, but the data remains broadly valid as the best recorded time for the car for the track in question. The bottom line is that there's no reason for you to keep shooting the messenger - and you might be better served by trying to understand the message that is being conveyed before you do...
you can consider the questions in post #27 and I would welcome your response