E60 550i Dyno w/ AFE, w/ stock, w/ stock + RPi
10-27-2008, 11:42 AM
#311
Senior Members
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glendale,AZ/ Los Angeles,CA
Posts: 2,923
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lol gene!!!
so Joe r we sending the intakes to trinity or were do we go from here????
EDIT: fact is Products should be tested,Dyno'd whatever else the fuck u do with them at a "real world" setting
EX:dyno'ing with hoods close in this case
so Joe r we sending the intakes to trinity or were do we go from here????
EDIT: fact is Products should be tested,Dyno'd whatever else the fuck u do with them at a "real world" setting
EX:dyno'ing with hoods close in this case
10-27-2008, 11:50 AM
#312
Contributors
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newnan, Georgia
Posts: 1,769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2004 545i
Production date: 02/04
Color: Black Sapphire Metallic
Trim: Anthracite
Options: Sport package with STEPTRONIC, Premium Sound, Rear Sunshade, Xenon
E-mail sent to Paul....awaiting a reply 
10-27-2008, 04:05 PM
#314
Contributors
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Calgary, AB - Canada / Buenos Aires - Argentina
Posts: 1,706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2006 BMW M5
Replies from Paul:
Thank you for your comments. I understand what you say about the
difference in performance between hot and cold days. It may not be as
pronounced but it is also true even with totally stock intake systems,
especially in hot climates like Southern California. We shield our
filters to minimize the amount of engine heat that is ingested. On some
applications, we have fully enclosed molded housings so we understand
the impact of heat on performance. However, once the vehicle is moving
at speeds greater than 25 mph, the airflow through the engine
compartment will be great enough that the difference between the ambient
air temperature and the Intake air temperature is minimal in a "heat
shielded" intake system. In a "non-shielded" intake systems, that is
not the case which is why we shield our intake systems. Additional
insulation will improve performance. Additional directed airflow to the
intake system will improve performance.
As for commenting on forums in defense of ourselves, we understand the
role and the impact forums have. We choose not to because we prefer to
let our customer speak for us. I could have raised numerous questions
regarding many of the points the RPI raised but to what purpose. As a
manufacturer, we will be seen as promoting our product and our words
will be seen as biased. An unbiased 3rd party has far greater weight.
Paul
Reply #2
I would also like to address the issue of dynoing with "hood open"
verses "hood closed" as it was raised by another reader. The question
was
How does dynoing with the hood open "justify appropriate normal driving
conditions"? My response would be how does a stationary vehicle reflect
normal driving conditions? Does the Patterson 30" fan which is 1hp and
moves 12k cfm simulating 70mph winds at 8ft from the car as RPIpower
claims? Here are some calculations to consider. 12,000 CFM=area *
velocity. If we calcite surface area of a 30" to be 4.906 sq ft, the
velocity at the face of the fan is 2446 fpm. 2446 fpm can be converted
to 27.8 mph. This is at the face of the fan. How much less would it be
8 feet away and how much air is forced through the grille? Something to
think about.
Paul
Thank you for your comments. I understand what you say about the
difference in performance between hot and cold days. It may not be as
pronounced but it is also true even with totally stock intake systems,
especially in hot climates like Southern California. We shield our
filters to minimize the amount of engine heat that is ingested. On some
applications, we have fully enclosed molded housings so we understand
the impact of heat on performance. However, once the vehicle is moving
at speeds greater than 25 mph, the airflow through the engine
compartment will be great enough that the difference between the ambient
air temperature and the Intake air temperature is minimal in a "heat
shielded" intake system. In a "non-shielded" intake systems, that is
not the case which is why we shield our intake systems. Additional
insulation will improve performance. Additional directed airflow to the
intake system will improve performance.
As for commenting on forums in defense of ourselves, we understand the
role and the impact forums have. We choose not to because we prefer to
let our customer speak for us. I could have raised numerous questions
regarding many of the points the RPI raised but to what purpose. As a
manufacturer, we will be seen as promoting our product and our words
will be seen as biased. An unbiased 3rd party has far greater weight.
Paul
Reply #2
I would also like to address the issue of dynoing with "hood open"
verses "hood closed" as it was raised by another reader. The question
was
How does dynoing with the hood open "justify appropriate normal driving
conditions"? My response would be how does a stationary vehicle reflect
normal driving conditions? Does the Patterson 30" fan which is 1hp and
moves 12k cfm simulating 70mph winds at 8ft from the car as RPIpower
claims? Here are some calculations to consider. 12,000 CFM=area *
velocity. If we calcite surface area of a 30" to be 4.906 sq ft, the
velocity at the face of the fan is 2446 fpm. 2446 fpm can be converted
to 27.8 mph. This is at the face of the fan. How much less would it be
8 feet away and how much air is forced through the grille? Something to
think about.
Paul
10-27-2008, 07:49 PM
#317
Contributors
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: A Car faster than yours.....
This whole thing is comical. Lets recap.
- We tested an AFE system (completely random for an M5board customer). The intake loses power on the dyno and on the street. The customer says the car is slower, even after a few hundred miles. He then has the intake taken out.
- We dyno a random customers 550 with afe (has been on for 1 year), install his stock intake and immediately gain 10whp (no ecu learn, no extra fan, no hood open, no 500+ miles).
- AFE challenges RPi
- AFE Engineer posts
- RPi asks questions
- AFE= no reply
- AFE customers service explains yada yada yada.
Ultimately the retailers and distributors get screwed. If AFE intakes are refunded by the retailers and distributors, they lose out on all past profits.....period. AFE questions our methods of improving the factory intake system, yet they copy our scoops. If AFE products are that proven, why not follow through with THEIR original challenge???? RPi did NOT call AFE out for a challenge. AFE challenged RPi and dropped themselves right out. We had over 20 people on Saturday waiting for some real world testing. BTW, there was a real world test. We had a customer with a 335 + AFE hai, AFE throttle body plate, AFE scoops and JB3 race a STOCK 335i dealership loaner car. The AFE equiped car could not pull on the stock car. The AFE products were taken off and the two cars raced again. This time the stock loaner car was left in the dust.
- We tested an AFE system (completely random for an M5board customer). The intake loses power on the dyno and on the street. The customer says the car is slower, even after a few hundred miles. He then has the intake taken out.
- We dyno a random customers 550 with afe (has been on for 1 year), install his stock intake and immediately gain 10whp (no ecu learn, no extra fan, no hood open, no 500+ miles).
- AFE challenges RPi
- AFE Engineer posts
- RPi asks questions
- AFE= no reply
- AFE customers service explains yada yada yada.
Ultimately the retailers and distributors get screwed. If AFE intakes are refunded by the retailers and distributors, they lose out on all past profits.....period. AFE questions our methods of improving the factory intake system, yet they copy our scoops. If AFE products are that proven, why not follow through with THEIR original challenge???? RPi did NOT call AFE out for a challenge. AFE challenged RPi and dropped themselves right out. We had over 20 people on Saturday waiting for some real world testing. BTW, there was a real world test. We had a customer with a 335 + AFE hai, AFE throttle body plate, AFE scoops and JB3 race a STOCK 335i dealership loaner car. The AFE equiped car could not pull on the stock car. The AFE products were taken off and the two cars raced again. This time the stock loaner car was left in the dust.
10-27-2008, 07:59 PM
#318
Contributors
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: A Car faster than yours.....
Originally Posted by miguex' post='704965' date='Oct 27 2008, 05:05 PM
Replies from Paul:
Thank you for your comments. I understand what you say about the
difference in performance between hot and cold days. It may not be as
pronounced but it is also true even with totally stock intake systems,
especially in hot climates like Southern California. We shield our
filters to minimize the amount of engine heat that is ingested. On some
applications, we have fully enclosed molded housings so we understand
the impact of heat on performance. However, once the vehicle is moving
at speeds greater than 25 mph, the airflow through the engine
compartment will be great enough that the difference between the ambient
air temperature and the Intake air temperature is minimal in a "heat
shielded" intake system. In a "non-shielded" intake systems, that is
not the case which is why we shield our intake systems. Additional
insulation will improve performance. Additional directed airflow to the
intake system will improve performance.
As for commenting on forums in defense of ourselves, we understand the
role and the impact forums have. We choose not to because we prefer to
let our customer speak for us. I could have raised numerous questions
regarding many of the points the RPI raised but to what purpose. As a
manufacturer, we will be seen as promoting our product and our words
will be seen as biased. An unbiased 3rd party has far greater weight.
Paul
Reply #2
I would also like to address the issue of dynoing with "hood open"
verses "hood closed" as it was raised by another reader. The question
was
How does dynoing with the hood open "justify appropriate normal driving
conditions"? My response would be how does a stationary vehicle reflect
normal driving conditions? Does the Patterson 30" fan which is 1hp and
moves 12k cfm simulating 70mph winds at 8ft from the car as RPIpower
claims? Here are some calculations to consider. 12,000 CFM=area *
velocity. If we calcite surface area of a 30" to be 4.906 sq ft, the
velocity at the face of the fan is 2446 fpm. 2446 fpm can be converted
to 27.8 mph. This is at the face of the fan. How much less would it be
8 feet away and how much air is forced through the grille? Something to
think about.
Paul
Thank you for your comments. I understand what you say about the
difference in performance between hot and cold days. It may not be as
pronounced but it is also true even with totally stock intake systems,
especially in hot climates like Southern California. We shield our
filters to minimize the amount of engine heat that is ingested. On some
applications, we have fully enclosed molded housings so we understand
the impact of heat on performance. However, once the vehicle is moving
at speeds greater than 25 mph, the airflow through the engine
compartment will be great enough that the difference between the ambient
air temperature and the Intake air temperature is minimal in a "heat
shielded" intake system. In a "non-shielded" intake systems, that is
not the case which is why we shield our intake systems. Additional
insulation will improve performance. Additional directed airflow to the
intake system will improve performance.
As for commenting on forums in defense of ourselves, we understand the
role and the impact forums have. We choose not to because we prefer to
let our customer speak for us. I could have raised numerous questions
regarding many of the points the RPI raised but to what purpose. As a
manufacturer, we will be seen as promoting our product and our words
will be seen as biased. An unbiased 3rd party has far greater weight.
Paul
Reply #2
I would also like to address the issue of dynoing with "hood open"
verses "hood closed" as it was raised by another reader. The question
was
How does dynoing with the hood open "justify appropriate normal driving
conditions"? My response would be how does a stationary vehicle reflect
normal driving conditions? Does the Patterson 30" fan which is 1hp and
moves 12k cfm simulating 70mph winds at 8ft from the car as RPIpower
claims? Here are some calculations to consider. 12,000 CFM=area *
velocity. If we calcite surface area of a 30" to be 4.906 sq ft, the
velocity at the face of the fan is 2446 fpm. 2446 fpm can be converted
to 27.8 mph. This is at the face of the fan. How much less would it be
8 feet away and how much air is forced through the grille? Something to
think about.
Paul
So......dont race at 27mph, because you WILL lose power.
When someone tries to race you, make sure you get to speed before letting him hit the horn 3 times.
10-27-2008, 08:04 PM
#319
Contributors
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MN
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the example above, you'd need to remove the AFE products one at a time in all possible orders to determine where the slow down occurs.
With my Evo VIII, there were many mods that required a tune to maximize the potential, as well as mods that didn't pair well with existing mods resulting in a loss of power. On top of that, Evos had a base whp number anywhere between 205-220.
Can we get a few completely stock e60s (stock rims) on a dyno and then add the AFE and post those results?
Do this at a respectable 3rd party dyno with AFE and e60 member(s) for validation. AFE pays for the comparison.
- 3 runs for each car stock to establish base
- 3 runs for each car stock with afe.
- Post acutal graphs online for review
With my Evo VIII, there were many mods that required a tune to maximize the potential, as well as mods that didn't pair well with existing mods resulting in a loss of power. On top of that, Evos had a base whp number anywhere between 205-220.
Can we get a few completely stock e60s (stock rims) on a dyno and then add the AFE and post those results?
Do this at a respectable 3rd party dyno with AFE and e60 member(s) for validation. AFE pays for the comparison.
- 3 runs for each car stock to establish base
- 3 runs for each car stock with afe.
- Post acutal graphs online for review
10-27-2008, 08:05 PM
#320
Contributors
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Calgary, AB - Canada / Buenos Aires - Argentina
Posts: 1,706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2006 BMW M5
Originally Posted by RPIpower' post='705104' date='Oct 27 2008, 09:59 PM
Thats awesome. You know why? Because that means our products make power in unreal conditions. lol. All their answers are to justify why AFE products show as a loss on our dyno. Meanwhile, the comments made by AFE only makes our products look better.
So......dont race at 27mph, because you WILL lose power. When someone tries to race you, make sure you get to speed before letting him hit the horn 3 times.
So......dont race at 27mph, because you WILL lose power.
When someone tries to race you, make sure you get to speed before letting him hit the horn 3 times.Right know I am using Dual air duct on Stock box. I admit both (dual AFE and dual Stock) are quicker and couldn't probe which is the fast. I need rollouts or someone with 545i stock race me.