Hopco

• I have a friend who used to work for an advertising agency with offices in Detroit. Among their customers were two divisions of GM. My friend quotes a GM manager who said that ninety-five percent of Americans don't know what a good car is, and that GM builds cars for that majority of Americans.
  
  
• I was a security analyst and one of my sayings is that management gets the labor relations they deserve. In the past, when the "Big Three" had a stranglehold on the US market - management sold the companies down the river for labor peace and management's right to earn good bonuses. They knew the problems of these excessive contracts would not show up on their watch ? now they have! (BTW at their peak ? the average autoworker or steelworker in the US was making something like 175% the average US blue-collar wage ? their unions did a good job for them ? today's workers are paying the price!)
  
  
• As to the future of GM and Ford ? while I wish them well ? I have a simple question. If you were a bright young American automotive engineer ? where would you prefer to work at Honda USA or Toyota USA OR GM or Ford?
  
  
• Let's hope for their sake the GM and Ford find another rabbit to pull out of their hat, like the SUV was ten years ago, but don't bet on it!
  
  
• Kerkorian has removed his chips from the table!
  

katheikia

As far as I am concerned there is nothing the big three can do to claim the luxury car market. It would have to be a new motor company with a whole new look at things. They would have to focus on build quality, performance, and customers input. Basically everything the big three doesnt do. Price would be last, if they made a great car, that evenly competed with the imports, they would have a great chance. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are finished in my book, no matter what they build, there names are just soiled from the past.

ISUK

There was an interesting column in last weeks Autocar magazine here in the UK about Ford and it's current problems. It said that after rumours of a proposed tie up between Ford and Nissan in the US some unamed industry observer had wittily commented that Ford of America might consider a merger with Ford of Europe. The point of this was to illustrate that the European arm is capable of producing some very good handling and well engineered cars and the parent company would do well to use this expertise in US models to reverse its fortunes against a growing tide of ever better foreign imports. The rest of the article was centred around Ford's belief that Mustang is a respected model worldwide and can somehow be turned into a "brand" and used on a range of cars including saloons and station wagons. I can't see this working myself. It's a pity that Ford US didn't give Ford Europe the job of producing the engineering for the current Mustang. Chrysler has done ok with the 300C over here as it's styling is bold and different and it has Mercedes engineering under the skin. It's just a pity that the interior quality and design is so woeful but then it's built to a price for the US market. It just seems strange that they think they can effectively charge double the US price in Europe yet not upgrade the quality of the car accordingly.

Nevermind

I worked in the automotive industry for 12 years and so have a slightly different point of view.

For me it comes down to culture and the notion of QUALITY. In the UK and Europe the word quality implies many things including good design, expensive materials, good performance etc etc, something that is better than strictly necessary to achieve the required result. These are the attributes given by North Americans to a "Prestige" or "Premium" product. Quality to the Americans means "fitness for purpose". To see the automotive reality of this look at a Vauxhall Vectra. Mechanically it is fine, good handling, reasonable performance, well built and roomy. The materials used are there to serve a purpose, cover the dash or stop your backside from kissing springs. The resulting car is honest family transport, but nobody ever bought one because they thought "I just love the well damped action of the cup holders". There is absolutely no feel good factor, no reason to feel smug about driving a lovingly constructed technological marvel.

In the basic sector this is adequate, in the prestige or premium sector it isn't. The Japanese are starting to learn, the bean counters at GM will never understand that having more and more gadgets and hide interiors do not make up for panel gaps measured in feet and really cheap plastic on the dashboards.

I recently considered a quite high spec Jeep Cherokee to replace my partner's Audi A4. Frankly, you've got to really need 4x4 to suffer that pile of junk. I loved the look, but everything else about it wasn't even bargain basement.

The American cars are designed and developed to a price, and the engineers have to rip all the nice stuff out so that they can sell it for $1000 less than the competition.

So there you go, my $0.02 worth, the difference is the interpretation of the word quality, "fitness for purpose" or "better then strictly necessary". The American car manufacturers strive for mediocrity and achieve it with aplomb.

p.s. I spent too long writing and I've just read the above post. For proof of how out of touch the US manufacturers are with their customers then consider the fact that the Mustang has a live rear axle, no doubt it is attached to the body with two strips of well tensioned leather. They should shoot the @#@~**** (Insert expletive as desired) that sanctioned that.

Kzang

IMO Most European people have higher standards than Most American people.

550isport

Hola UUronL,

I too grew up driving pure American iron and steel across the pavement. My first car was a 76' Chrysler New Yorker with a 400ci 4 barrel that dropped a rod. I actually put the new long block in along with a real mechanic. Then at the ripe old age of 21 I moved on to a 79 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham with a 425. All the while I helped my best friend restore his 69 Firebird. I was a Mopar man myself. A true quasi gear head. Anyway, that is where my roots are when I say that I enjoyed driving the V6 Audi much more than the Vette.

My old man has a 2006 vette. Its a nice car, and they have made some nice improvements but its so silly to compare it to a porsche. The porsche is a razor blade to the vette's baseball bat. Both capable of the same degree of damage, but they inflict it in entirely different ways. I agree with you that American cars have some value. We make the best trucks. Our sedans make ideal car service vehicles and some of our modern muscle cars are great. I've only driven a Viper once, but it seemed like a much more pure expression of a muscle car than a Vette. The Viper doesn't try to be a comfortable daily car like the vette does...a job at which in my opinion it fails at when compared to an M3...which coincidentally is the car my childhood friend with the firebird now drives.

I bought my first BMW in 2001 as a gift to myself on my 27th birthday. Since then I have bought three BMW cars (one for the wife) and two BMW bikes. BMW cars are the only cars I have ever driven, aside from exotics, (and I driven quite a few cars) that really feel at home with my driving style. Every other car, especially Mercedes, makes me feel like I'm beating on the car. I am at home in a BMW. And I don't think I'll ever be able to say that about an American car, regrettably.

Happy Holidays,
DRP

P.S.
It wasn't the speed of the vette that scared the wife by the way. I have taken her on the back of my 05' K1200S - the fastest BMW in the world. If a sub 11 second second quarter mile didn't scare her then why would a base automatic corvette convertible right? It really is less than 1/3rd of a second quicker to 60 than my 550. She was scared in the vette because it felt poorly built and rode somewhat jerky, and that is scarry from the passenger seat as you zip through Miami traffic. Its like being scared in a car not because its going so fast, but because the driver seems drunk.

subterFUSE

Yeah.... she was scared because the Vette is a piece of crap American car with a big engine.

Anybody can stick a big engine under a hood, and make a car go fast. But it takes good engineering to design a frame which can contain all that power, and give the operator good control. That's what BMW does, and what few other brands are capable of.

steve_gus

Some great, well articulated posts there! Enjoyable reads.

A further illustration of how cheap finish can let american offerings down is the new Dodge Caliber.

Im sure all from north america are thinking that is an example of crap, and its a cheap car anyway. Lets just examine it further.

In the USA the Caliber starts at around $14000. In the UK it starts at ?11,500, which is close to $20,000 at current rates.

For the money, even with the approx 45% mark up (!!!!!!) externally it looks like a good car. The size is a bit of an illusion, as effectively its just a chunky small 'people carrier'. It comes with engines from Mitsubishi and Volkswagen, so decent underpinnings.

I havnt driven one to comment on the overall drive, but where it all falls down, is when you get inside. The plastics are utter utter utter crap. The doors are clad in thick grey moulded plastic 'shells' that explains where all the plastic I put in my recycling bins ends up. Then, to compliment, on mid range models, you get leather seats! So, old coke bottles on the doors, real mooo mooo died for the seats.

Where is the design rationale - is it cheap and crappy, or 'upscale'. ? Clearly, it shouts cheap and crappy. A little more effort on the interior, at least to the level of a cheap euro box, would have made for a better car. There is no point buying what looks in the UK a chunky, different 'offroader' - if when your friends get in, they see all that tat inside.

As a poster said, dont push whats effectively a ?8k car in USA to us at ?12+ (these can go for $30,000 as a 'top end' diesel) and expect people to buy it.

cheers

steve

ImolaRedM

I understand what you mean but consider also that BMW has seen some heat for weak chassis components in the E46, E36 and Z8.

300TTto545

Great discussion.

The vast majority of drivers - European and American - do not fully realize the advantages of a BMW. There is no question a driving culture difference based on roadways and history. In Europe - a smaller percentage of people drive - and as such - they are on average better drivers. Europeans (I hate to stereotype) drive corners faster and are more used to/comfortable in smaller cars. The higher fuel prices also contribute to this culture.

Americans take corners incredibly slowly and are not comfortable with higher speeds. So they choose to drive SUVs because their poor handling etc doesn't bother them. Finally - their gas mileage is starting to bother people but it hasn't for 30 years.

The big 3 cater to this public that slows to 10 mph for a corner and drive under 80 mph all the time. This public thinks that BMW drive a little harsh. They have put their engineering "talent" into SUVs and not sedans - much to the detriment of them as fuel prices rise and concern for CO2 does.

Lastly - the big 3 interiors suck. Most of the public cares. They appreciate the Audi interior but it isn't as much of a priority as space and ride height. But for a utility vehicle - the interiors do okay.

A friend bought a Cadillac (the $50k hotrod 4 door sedan) at the same time as I got my 545. 3 radiators. Far more dealer visits than me. The car is a bit faster but really doesn't compare to a 5 series.