DD_545i

Damn it !! I don't think of the Cayenne as a real Porsche, it shares so much with the VW Touareg

E60714

Audi seems to focus more on the aesthetics of the car. I think their cars look beautiful, definitely better than most BMWs, especially the newer ones like the F01 and F10. The problem is still the FWD aspect of their cars. Their engines also seem to be severely underpowered. I think a 535 could beat the $70k S6, even though the S6 would be better suited against a 550. I would think the M3 would also give the RS4 a run for its money, although something tells me an S8 would kill even a 760.

And does the R8 really handle that well? Better than a Porsche? Really? I think many people would disagree. I can't remember the Top Gear track times, or Nurburgring times, but I'm sure more Porsches, possibly the older ones, handle better than an R8.

Random question, Ferrari's handle pretty well, I'm assuming, but what about those bulky Lambos? Are Murcielagos and their V12s good handlers?

craigm1841

i wouldnt put too much stock in that list he made.

craigm1841

the 2009 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 has a faster Nurburgring time then the R8, so what-ev

craigm1841

N?rburgring lap times


6:55 Radical SR8
7:22.1 2009 Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR
7:24.3 Maserati MC12
7:24.7 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport
7:25.3 Ferrari Enzo
7:26.4 2009 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1
7:26.70 2010 Nissan GT-R
7:27.82 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport
7:28 Porsche Carrera GT
7:29 2009 Nissan GT-R
7:32.02 2008 Porsche 911 GT2
7:33.6 Koenigsegg CCX
7:34 Koenigsegg CCR
7:34 Porsche 911 GT2
7:35 Ruf Rt 12
7:38 Porsche 911 Turbo
7:39 F430 Scuderia
7:40 Bugatti Veyron 16.4
7:40 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren
7:40 Lamborghini Murcielago LP640
7:40.6 Ford GT
7:42 Porsche 911 GT3
7:42.99 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06
7:43 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
7:44 Pagani Zonda S
7:46 Porsche 911 GT2
7:46 Lamborgini Gallardo Superleggera
7:47 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
7:47 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano
7:47 Lamborghini Murci?lago LP640 E-gear
7:49 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06
7:49.0 Porsche 911 GT2
7:50 BMW M3 CSL
7:50 2009 Porsche 911 Carrera S
7:52 Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4
7:54 Mercedes CLK DTM AMG
7:54 Nissan GT-R
7:55 Caterham R500 Superlight
7:55 Ferrari F430 F1
7:55.9 Nissan GT-R
7:56 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06
7:56 Honda NSX-R (NA2)
7:56 Porsche 911 Turbo
7:56 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale f1
7:59 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z51
7:59 2009 Cadillac CTS-V
7:59 Porsche 911 Carrera S
7:59 Nissan Skyline GT-R R33 V-Spec
7:59 Dodge Viper SRT-10
8:01 Nissan Skyline GT-R R33
8:02 Mercedes CLK 63 AMG - Black Series
8:03 Aston Martin V8 Vantage (2005)
8:03 Porsche 911 GT3
8:03 Honda NSX-R (NA1)
8:04 Audi R8
8:05 BMW M3 E92
8:06 Subaru WRX STi Spec-C
8:07 BMW Z8 E52
8:09 Audi RS4
8:09 BMW M6 E63
8:09 Honda NSX-R
8:10 Chrysler Viper GTS
8:10 BMW Alpina B6 S
8:10.08 Porsche Cayman S
8:11 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX
8:13 BMW M5 E60
8:13 Ferrari 355 GTB
8:13 Mercedes-Benz_C63 AMG
8:14 BMW Alpina B3 Biturbo Coup?
8:16.90 Renault M?ganeRS R26.R
8:18 Lexus IS-F
8:22 Nissan Skyline GT-R R32
8:22.85 2008 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbo
8:22 BMW M3 E46
8:22 BMW M Coupe E36/8
8:24 2004 Subaru Impreza
8:25 Lotus Exige S
8:25 Jaguar XKR
8:25 Porsche Cayman S
8:24 Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VI
8:25 Mitsubishi Charisma GT Evo VII
8:26 Audi S5
8:26 BMW 335i E92 Coupe
8:26 Nissan 350Z
8:28 Porsche 911 Carrera (993)
8:29 Audi TTS Coup?
8:32 Porsche Boxster S
8:38 Honda NSX
8:39 Honda S2000
8:39 Mazda MAZDASPEED3
8:40 Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:42 Lotus Exige Mk1
8:47 Honda Civic Type-R
8:49 Volkswagen Golf R32
8:51 Ford Focus ST
8:53 Volkswagen Golf GTI DSG MK5
8:54 Vauxhall Corsa VXR
9:02 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbo
9:05 Ford Focus RS
9:12 Jaguar S-Type Diesel

DD_545i

But what's that list got to do with "handling" ?

A lotus exige handles better than an Audi R8 but the R8 is ahead of it on that list.

Handling != Power

craigm1841

yeah, but measuring N?rburgring lap times is like the "industry standard" for determining the overall performance of a vehicle. this topic was originally a discussion of engineering.

v_therussian

I'm surprised there's no mention of GT-R or the C6 ZR1 here... but seriously, HANDLING and power are not the same thing. Nurburgring numbers are reflective of a car's ability to handle, but also of the car's torque (which is what acceleration is mostly "made of"). Exige pulls 1g+ on the skidpad in more or less "stock" form, but it's 1.8 liter Toyota engine just does not have the torque to outrun GT-R or C6 ZR1 on the 'Ring - no way, no how! Not even with 10 turbo/superchargers strapped to its crank! Conversely, an SL65 AMG has in excess of 700 lb-ft of torque, but its suspension cannot manage its overweight mass well enough to post a winning number. Viper, on the other hand, can be made to be the winner - actually, was the fastest around the 'Ring for a while... is it still? - i'm not sure...

Anyway, what you have to remember is that handling and power are different things and that there's more than one measurement to each. I.e. power can be measured in HP as well as torque - either is important. HP provides speed, torque provides acceleration. Similarly, steering setup provides feedback (or lack thereof), turn-in and so on, but suspension provides the stability (or lack thereof) and so forth. When those two come together in a well-designed light chassis, it creates a great handler, like the Exige. But what ultimately makes the machine the top cat is not necessarily limited to these two. To some, the ultimate driving machine is just a comfortable seat (those people buy Volvos), others want the raw machine with no amenities, but top handling ability (so they buy a Lotus Elise or a 'Vette). We, on the other hand, want all of the above and as little compromise as possible, married to a decent size interior with a good dose of modern technologies (nothing crazy - just the stuff we really need, like the heated steering wheel ) - we buy the e60... its a subjective thing, once you get past the laws of physics - that's all I'm trying to say

v_therussian

And wow, I did not realize that the e92 M3 is just a second behind the R8 around the 'Ring... RESPECT on that list, Craig

craigm1841

which brings us back to: