We used to fill midgrade /premium(any brand) gas in our cars and noticed a signifcant drop in mpg in acura MDX.
I filled midgrade(Shell) in my 528 xi till last week, I changed to V-Power(Shell) and noticed a significant increase in mpg.
We decided to go with TopTier - Premium for all our cars from now, period. And use Shell master card / Discover gas card with 5% rebate / credit.
The gas quality and brand definetely makes a difference.

 

Thanks for the information. Well informed opinions are appreciated.

 

Do we really change everything that BMW says about caring for our cars? Are we a bit more cautious and change oil and tranny fluid more often than recommended? Sure. But do we use a cheaper oil than the synthetic that is recommended, doubtful. Timing is one thing, what we put in our cars is another. What oil did you put in your car at its last oil change? I suspect you did not go to Pep Boys and buy five quarts of their store brand oil because it was cheaper.

It amazes me how Americans can't take off their blinders when it comes to oil companies. We are happy to pay the equivalant of roughly $8/gallon (depending on brand) for bottled water without a whimper. But $3/gallon for gasoline is gouging.

 

My view is that some Americans have taken "off their blinders" regarding oil companies. If Shell could provide some objective information regarding the benefits of their "Top Tier V-Power 93 Octane" gasoline other than pictures atop a pump of supposedly sludge-covered valves, then they'd do so. Instead, in apparent league with BMW, they inveigh against using the cheaper "non-branded" gasolines in BMW engines, implying that untold damage would result from using "Fred's Gas." Seems to me that if they had the evidence...that is, objective evidence...they'd have produced it long ago. Perhaps it's time to put up, or shut up, eh?

 

Oil companies get such a bad rap and oftentimes the media chooses what to say and leaves a lot of other info out. I'm not championing oil companies cause I think they have their downers just like any other corporation, but I think most people just don't realize how hard it is to actually get oil. Lets take oil rigs for instance. Modern oil rigs sit out in the open ocean, have to deal with some of the worst weather imaginable, and have to drill miles deep. Not only that, sometimes your not exactly drilling directly over the oil in a vertical direction. You have to hit the ocean floor and then you have to start drilling sideways! That's right folks, sideways! Oftentimes, you have to drill more in the horizontal direction than the vertical. Plus, your also trying to hit a relatively small target.

And if that wasn't enough, once it comes out of the ground you have to refine it or turn the raw crude into useable gasoline. Refining itself is a whole other beast and a very complex process that's getting increasingly more difficult due to more stringent environmental regulations and low sulfur requirements.

The gas companies don't really price gouge, there's another reason why they make so much money but that's a separate topic. In fact, the government makes way more off of taxes on selling gasoline than all the gas companies combined. Yet, have you ever heard any of the politicians call for a tax break? They never bring up how much money they are making, and it?s not like they aren?t benefiting.

 

Yes Gman, put up or shut up, you didn't answer my question about your last oil change. Did you put 5 quarts of Pep Boys oil in your car at the last oil change? If you did, please explain why. If you did not, I think I know why. I know the answer, BMW did it for "free" under the four-year coverage. Don't you think they'd want to save money by using lesser oil in the engine if they thought there was no difference? Same applies to gasoline. Shell and other companies have run tests on their gas but you and other refuse to accept the results because they are "biased". Now if you believe that BMW and other auto makers are in some kind of devil's agreement with the oil companies, maybe you need to offer some proof as well. What does BMW stand to gain from approving of top-tier gasoline?

I for one give most folks the benefit of the doubt. Car companies have nothing to gain by endorsing one gas over another and in the top-tier program they don't, they simply want a certain level of product quality along with certain elements that help the engines. They believe, and they are smarter than you or I when it comes to engine technology, that there are certain characteristics of modern gasoline that are best for modern engines. It appears that I will not convince you of that, so when you stop at Fred's for your next fill-up, why don't you complain about the price on the bottle of Evian that they are selling? There is tap water available or even lower cost bottled water, but Evian is not "gouging" consumers. You expect that consumers are intelligent enough to decide if Evian is worth the extra cost without explaining why Evian is better than other waters. I can't wait for the Democrats to call for Congressional hearings on the outrageous prices of bottled water.

Gman, please don't take my response to your post personally, this all started as a discussion of whether there was any difference in gasolines. It has take a bit of a turn from the original thought, but there are differences. Some are willing to pay for that difference, some are not, same as water! And please don't mistake my silence for the next week as some sort of capitulation, I will be on a beach, blissfully out of reach from a computer. See you guys next week!

 

ks - I guess I missed the question regarding the last oil change. Actually, I used Castrol Synthetic at 5,000 miles on the odo because I have read objective studies regarding the efficacy of synthetics in general. I paid to do something at 5,000 miles which BMW should have paid for, but won't until the CCC says it can. I have asked the tech staff at BMW CCA to weigh in on this gasoline question, and will see what their reply is. I tend to value the informed opinions of Mike Miller and staff. Perhaps you'll see their reply when you return from UV city.

 

BMWCCA Mike Miller's view on "Top-Tier" gasoline...(lengthy post is below)...but headline is, don't bother with "Top-Tier" just use high-octane gasoline, and add some "fuel system cleaner." MM's information:

At issue is the question of gasoline detergency, separate and distinct from octane. To understand the current situation, there is an historical prerequisite.



Initially, we have to recognize that German cars are designed to run on European gasoline, and there's only so much BMW can do to adapt the cars to U.S. gasoline. The differences between the fuels are legion, but what it comes down to is a difference in political philosophy. In the U.S., the energy industry is largely freewheeling, unregulated and it exists for one purpose only: To make a profit for it's shareholders and the big guys at the top of the food chain. It is a pure-profit system designed to make as much money as possible, bar none. In Europe, the energy industry is either highly regulated or, in some cases, state-owned. The European energy industry exists to serve the needs of the people and the national security needs of the country and continent, and to make a reasonable profit.



Now, back to the U.S. In the early-to-mid 1980s, gasoline detergency was all over the place. Most gasoline had mediocre detergency levels, some was furnace oil, and some was very good. Examples of the good stuff included high-octane offerings from BP, Chevron, Shell, Sunoco, and Texaco. But these fuels were, of course, more expensive, especially Sunoco Ultra-94. German car owners primarily used the cheaper stuff and you could get away back then with lower octane fuel because the compression ratios were lower on the U.S.-spec cars. But only the high-octane offerings had the high detergency levels.



The result of using low detergency fuels was a massive buildup of carbon deposits on the valves and also on top of the pistons. Ultimately, BMW had instituted the 1986 BMW Engine Campaign, affectionately known as the Walnut Shell Affair, whereby technicians would use an ingenious pneumatic machine to effectively shell-blast the carbon from the intake valves using crushed up walnut shells, which were then sucked back into a waste recepticle on the machine. Walnut shells were used because it didn't matter if they got into the combustion chamber -- they'd just burn up. There's still a BMW part number for a 50-lb bag of crushed walnut shells.



Contemporaneously, BMW named several gasolines that were "BMW Approved," and the pumps were adorned with stickers to that affect. The Soviets gave up, BMW came out with three M cars for the U.S. market, all was well with the world.



Then, along came someone who said the words with which you and I are very familiar...



"I'm from the government. I'm here to help."



Uh oh...



In 1995, the EPA enacted minimum additive standards for gasoline sold in the U.S. Problem was, the standards were lower than the "BMW Approved" gasoline, and the result was inevitable: Big Oil reduced the amount of detergent additives in compliance with the new law, often by quite a bit. From then on, almost all the gas was equally bad. But some companies soldiered on with good fuel but at a higher price, including Shell.



Nowadays, we're back to the "Top Tier" that really does have more detergent additives. However, I suspect even the good stuff is well below European detergency standards, as well as European sulfur standards. As you said, there is no objectivity or studies to prove anything. All we have is what is posted at www.toptiergas.com, which is clearly marketing driven.



Does Top Tier gas make a difference? I think it would reduce the amount of carbon deposit build up on the intake valves and the tops of the pistons vice lesser gasoline if Top TIer fuel was used consistently over a long period. Deposit build-up is gradual, taking place over many miles, until it finally shows up either as a drivability problem (valves) or pinging because the knock sensing ignition system operational parameters have been exceeded by the amount of carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons. This is why you don't notice any difference in the short term.



Another factor is, unless you live in a well-cashed urban area, Top Tier gasoline is not always around the corner.


So, at the end of the day, I use high-octane gasoline because all my vehicles have high compression ratios, I buy it where it is cheapest, and I add a smidgen of fuel system cleaner at each fill up for extra detergency. There are a number of good ones: BG44K, original BMW gasoline additive, Chevron Techron, the LubroMoly Jectron and Ventil Sauber system (see attached article) and Red Line SI-1. I use Red Line SI-1 because it's the most economical.



Best regards,

Mike Miller
BMW CCA Roundel Magazine Technical Editor

 

[quote name='ExGMan' date='Jun 19 2007, 12:33 PM' post='437432']
BMWCCA Mike Miller's view on "Top-Tier" gasoline...(lengthy post is below)...but headline is, don't bother with "Top-Tier" just use high-octane gasoline, and add some "fuel system cleaner." MM's information:

OK! so what fuel system cleaner do we use?

 

Mike lists them in the last paragraph of his note. I bought a case of Red Line SI-1 online yesterday for $62. It should last me a long time.