My motivation has nothing to do with costs or savings and I'm not asking anyone to make a judgement on a value proposition. I'm lucky enough not to have to concern myself with gas prices - I honestly couldn't tell you the price of gasoline without it being a WAG (wild-assed guess). I view buying TopTier gas like taking vitamins or supplements - I probably can't tell you with complete certainty that it will help, but some pretty trusted parties advocate it... I can afford it, so I do it.


Car and Driver generally isn't a mouthpiece and does a fairly decent job in the area of reporting technical issues. This was published in 2005.


http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...p;page_number=1

 

You can start by reading all the various additives used in gasolines at Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_additive

Not all gasolines use the same formulation of these various oxygenates, detergents and other chemicals. The OP correctly points out that coming from any refinery, gasoline is pretty much the same. And yes, at bulk storage and transportation terminals, they are interchangable. But different companies have their own special formula of additives to help keep engines clean, running more efficiently. Clearly the top car companies, BMW included, have studied these differences and concluded that there is indeed a difference. Now either you don't believe what BMW says about taking care of its own engines or you are a conspiracy theorist and think the car companies are in bed with the oil companies.

If you want to save a few pennies a gallon, go ahead. It doesn't bother me in the least. But my response was to the OP and in fact there are differences between gasolines at the pump. As I stated in my original response, it is up to the consumer to decide is the difference is worth the price. The decision process is no different than if you are buying Dial soap to bathe with or the cheaper store brand.

 

Thank you for posting the article, which I read.

You have already referenced several majors that, according to the Top Tier website, are not part of the Top Tier list (http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html), including BP Amoco (which includes ARCO), Exxon, Mobil, and Total/Fina.

The article you cite was written two years ago, and suggests that certain fuel formulations are clearly superior to others.

My questions are these:

1) Why wouldn't the other majors conform to this standard rather than risk the injury to their reputation (relative to other refiners) for selling inferior fuels to the public that might result in "thick deposits that that can dramatically affect your car's performance" and may result in costly repairs?

2) Why isn't the "Top Tier" standard (which is three years old) better known to the general public instead of C and D readers, as an example? If there is sound data that supports the assertions of the article, why wouldn't the refiners looking for higher sales *trumpet* these facts to justify higher prices or purchases of their product?

I've never seen a Top Tier logo in any advertisements for gasoline at gas stations, in the print media, or television. Have I just missed them?

 

For me, I try to stick to the "Top Tier" gas for the same reason this type of debate exists.
There really isn't any crystal clear explanation to which brand makes good gas and how its better than others, but I would much rather pay few more cents a gallon and not have to worry about is my car being jeopardized with cheap discount gas.
However, as long as they are "top-tier" gas, I'm not selective about which "top-tier" it is.
I'm not the type of person who look for names but if it makes me feel better, by all means. Why not?

 

Just to clarify, it was I who mentioned gasoline brands by name, not UUronL. He never distinguished between brands.

1) Valid question, why would an oil company not participate in this program? Clearly Exxon feels their gasoline is of a good enough quality so it does not need some stamp of approval by this Top-Tier group. And they clearly don't think the lack of a "top-tier" designation will meaningfully hurt sales. Beyond that I don't know the reasons they did not join the group. Exxon has always marched to the beat of its own choosing!

2) Why has the "top-tier" standard not become more widely used/known? Personally I think the answer to #1 is the reason. If they could have gotten all the major oils onboard the program would have a lot more clout. To have more than one of the largest gasoline retailers in the world not particpate only sets up a nasty marketing campaign with Exxon trying to show that its offering is as good or superior.

And its not that Exxon or BP or Total don't have their own additive packages that they feel do an excellent job of keeping engines clean etc., they do have these additives as well. Don't know why they decided not to participate...

 

I noticed one day that my car felt sluggish after a fill up at non-brand, so I paid close attention on mileage for next 4 fill up (2 non brand and 2 brand just to see in interleave successions). It's obvious I got about 1 mpg more using brand.
A friend of mine who drives an A8 confirmed this as well, not scientific off course.

Really, unless you are driving alot a saving of about 5-10 cents a gallon won't save you money but why risk pinging your car etc. Anybody can choose what they want, I made my mind.

 

The so-called "Top Tier" gasoline (Shell) in the Boston area has little cardboard pieces atop their pumps at the moment showing how using the V-Power Shell (93 Octane) will reduce "engine sludge" in as little as 5,000 miles. Other than subjective judgements: "my car felt sluggish," no one seems to be able to come up with any objective way to determine if Shell "Top-Tier" is any better for a car than, say Fred's Gas, which might cost 25-cents/gallon less for the 93-octane product. We seem to accept the BMW judgement about "Top-Tier" gasoline, but change every other aspect of the cars which are the result of BMWs judgement...to include oil, transmission and differential fluid change-intervals, brake pads, tires, etc, etc. Have we suffered a failure of critical faculties?

 

Gas is gas, there is no difference....to a certain extent.

That being said, there is a physical difference in gas being sold in LA versus NYC, but that is because gasoline sold throughout the US is specifically blended per that particular regions regulations. How that gas is blended also typically changes depending on the season. In other words, gas refined for the Gulfcoast is not sold to say a driver in Seattle. This is also one of the reasons why gas prices tend to vary from state-to-state.

As for branded vs. non-branded, most retailers buy their gasoline from central distribution hubs. Refineries, regardless of what company they may be, send their refined gasoline to this central hub and they all mix together in holding tanks. This central hub, or loading racks, is where the trucks go to fill up and deliver gasoline to stations. The additives are added at these truck loading racks and mixed in with the gasoline as the trucks fill up. The additives are really the ONLY distinction between different brands of gasoline.

So in other words, the gas you buy is most likely a combination of gasoline refined from a bunch of different refineries and the only real difference is the additives added in the end. However, if you live close to a refinery chances are your local gas is coming from that refinery cause most of them have truck loading racks on-site.

The government makes sure that what goes to these distribution hubs is good enough to be sold through sampling. The government also audits gas stations and take samples directly from the pump, usually to make sure that the gas being sole matches the octane rating.

I work in the Oil & Gas industry BTW.

 

"Objective" is the key word here, especially if *the same gasoline from the same refinery* is being sold by different retailers under different brand names. Fred's Gas and Shell have a reasonable likelihood of being produced in the same place.

Also, Fred's Gas may have one of the many common additives (oxygenates and anti-oxidizers) that are frequently added to gasoline and sold to consumers as "Techroline" or "V-Power". The molecules might be slightly different from one another, but I suspect the additives are qualitatively the same between brands.

The increased cost at the pump of a major is at least partly due to the huge advertising costs that influenced you to go there in the first place. Independents generally don't spend that kind of money on media, and they pass the savings on to you proportionately.

Gasoline is a hydrocarbon distillate that comes out of the tap in fundamentally the same place in the same way, no matter who is making it. Paying more for gasoline because of a sense that some inherent "quality" within one brand is better than another brand still doesn't make much sense to me.

It's a commodity that is marketed like an elixir. (It isn't.)

 

1) Yes Fred's may have some of the same common additives. And it may not. People pay a small premium to know what they are getting, not what they may or may not be getting. And what you dismiss as slightly different molecules makes a big difference at the molecular level which is where the combustion in your engine takes place. And they are not qualitatively the same. Many are patented additives that are propriatery to the company. As I said before I doubt the average driver would really notice but they are different.

2) Can't totally disagree with this, but you need to define independent. Valero is a major refiner but is an "independent". Yes, a "Fred's" on the corner doesn't have the marketing costs of a Shell. Then go to Fred's. This thread started with a discussion of whether there is any difference. I think we have all agreed there is a difference, coming from the various additives and either you are willing to pay for it or you are not.

3) I'm sorry it doesn't make sense but I also happily pay more for my Safeguard soap rather than buying the Winn Dixie or Wal-Mart brand for what I think is a higher quality product. The decision process is the same in retail gasoline market. Yes, all basic gasoline is the same, it is the additives that make the difference. Just like a basic soap is a soap but the maker add things like moisturizer and perfume to make it work better. Same for gasolines.

We keep coming back to the issue I raised in my first post to this thread, the differences are small but they are there and either you are willing to pay for the consistent product from a large supplier or you hunt around for the cheapest gas. But gasoline is not the same not matter who is selling it.