Gasoline is the same, no matter who is selling it?
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From: UK
Originally Posted by ExGMan' post='437432' date='Jun 19 2007, 06:33 PM
In Europe, the energy industry is either highly regulated or, in some cases, state-owned. The European energy industry exists to serve the needs of the people and the national security needs of the country and continent, and to make a reasonable profit.
Shell & BP?
For "state owned" read heavily taxed by the State.
ABC
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From: Houston, Tx
My Ride: 2005 530i, 1995 318ic
retired circa 1970 2002, , circa 1985 320, 1998 528i, 1998 740i
I talked to a specialist today with ExxonMobil to get the rationale behind Exxon and Mobil branded gas not being Top Tier. I was told that
1) Exxon and Mobil gas exceed Top Tier requirements
2) EM elected not to participate for internal reaons that include disagreement with the lack of collaboration between the refiners and the car manufacturers.
3) EM could apply today and get acceptance, but Sr. Mgmt recently rejected due to number 2 above.
4) A specific car manufacturer (not BMW) was a big impetus behind the designation due to their own mechanical design flaws with their engines.
Bottom line, Exxon and Mobil gas will give you that warm fuzzy feeling of cleaning your high performance engine.
1) Exxon and Mobil gas exceed Top Tier requirements
2) EM elected not to participate for internal reaons that include disagreement with the lack of collaboration between the refiners and the car manufacturers.
3) EM could apply today and get acceptance, but Sr. Mgmt recently rejected due to number 2 above.
4) A specific car manufacturer (not BMW) was a big impetus behind the designation due to their own mechanical design flaws with their engines.
Bottom line, Exxon and Mobil gas will give you that warm fuzzy feeling of cleaning your high performance engine.
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I am of the view that "fred's gas" is virtually the same as "top tier gas," but one thing that should be considered is that the larger franchises do more to self regulate what happens at the local level. Many unregulated stations are trying nasty things like adding more ethanol to a gas mixture.
A top-tier franchise does more to protect its name (e.g., regulating its franchises).
Perhaps the claims of better gas mileage when using higher grade fuels relates to this issue.
I will continue to buy "Fred's gas" or Chevron, which tends to be cheaper than the other larger companies where I live. I lease my car, and I am not sure that I want to waste my time worrying about the issue.
I have never seen any actual proof set forth by Exxon showing that its fuel is better.
On a side note, I am still resenting that my mother bought me Hydrox cookies rather than Oreos when I was little (an American joke).
A top-tier franchise does more to protect its name (e.g., regulating its franchises).
Perhaps the claims of better gas mileage when using higher grade fuels relates to this issue.
I will continue to buy "Fred's gas" or Chevron, which tends to be cheaper than the other larger companies where I live. I lease my car, and I am not sure that I want to waste my time worrying about the issue.
I have never seen any actual proof set forth by Exxon showing that its fuel is better.
On a side note, I am still resenting that my mother bought me Hydrox cookies rather than Oreos when I was little (an American joke).
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Originally Posted by monacobmw' post='437925' date='Jun 20 2007, 06:06 PM
On a side note, I am still resenting that my mother bought me Hydrox cookies rather than Oreos when I was little (an American joke).
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My Ride: 2005 530i, 1995 318ic
retired circa 1970 2002, , circa 1985 320, 1998 528i, 1998 740i
Originally Posted by monacobmw' post='437925' date='Jun 20 2007, 05:06 PM
I have never seen any actual proof set forth by Exxon showing that its fuel is better.
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Originally Posted by ExGMan' post='437937' date='Jun 20 2007, 05:44 PM
+1. Hydrox cookies were definitely saltier...clearly not "Top Tier."
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In reading Mike's story I can't disagree with what he said but if you are looking for expertise on gasoline, what makes Mike so qualified? Being the technical expert of Roundel? Hardly a chemical engineer! But I don't know that...
As for his unbiased view, yes unbiased but hardly sounds like a well researched, concrete proof that there is something wrong with top tier gasolines. Statements such as: "However, I suspect even the good stuff is well below European detergency standards, as well as European sulfur standards."
Why suspect? Surely he can do some research for his article and find out the U.S. and European standards. Haven't had time to dig myself but will try later today.
"I think it would reduce the amount of carbon deposit build up on the intake valves and the tops of the pistons vice lesser gasoline if Top TIer fuel was used consistently over a long period. Deposit build-up is gradual, taking place over many miles, until it finally shows up either as a drivability problem (valves) or pinging because the knock sensing ignition system operational parameters have been exceeded by the amount of carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons. This is why you don't notice any difference in the short term."
Why does he think this? Either he believes the oil companies and their biased studies or he has seen some other unbiased study. Or he really doesn't have proof one way or the other. And what he says following "I think..." is that the gasolines work as advertised but that its not something you'd notice in one tank of gas. The oil companies have only claimed just this.
So the gist of his story is not that the top-tier gasoline don't work, it is exactly what I said a long time ago in the thread, is the detergant package worth the extra cost? Mike does not address this at all. What he (and we) need to work through is the average price of premium gas at any one of the big guys, top-tier or not. They all charge more for their gas. Then compare that to "Fred's" or any other non-big guy charges for their comparable octane gas. What does that difference per gallon come to? Let's say $0.20/gallon or $2 per ten gallon fill-up.
Now Gman has paid $62 for a case of Red Line SI-1. How much do you add per tank/fill-up? Mike says "I add a smidgen..." How much is a smidgen? How much is in a bottle or a case. I assume it will last more than 30 fill-ups but I'd like to see the math. Something like a bottle is 8 fluid ounces and we add 1 ounce per fill up so 8 fill ups per bottle times 12 bottles per case gets you 96 fill ups. So the variance of 64 fill ups with the Red Line SI-1 saves you $128. Is that a year, every six months? It should be a simple exercise to walk through.
Again Mike never says in his article that top-tier gas is bad, doesn't work as advertised or should be shunned in favor of cheaper gas.
As for his unbiased view, yes unbiased but hardly sounds like a well researched, concrete proof that there is something wrong with top tier gasolines. Statements such as: "However, I suspect even the good stuff is well below European detergency standards, as well as European sulfur standards."
Why suspect? Surely he can do some research for his article and find out the U.S. and European standards. Haven't had time to dig myself but will try later today.
"I think it would reduce the amount of carbon deposit build up on the intake valves and the tops of the pistons vice lesser gasoline if Top TIer fuel was used consistently over a long period. Deposit build-up is gradual, taking place over many miles, until it finally shows up either as a drivability problem (valves) or pinging because the knock sensing ignition system operational parameters have been exceeded by the amount of carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons. This is why you don't notice any difference in the short term."
Why does he think this? Either he believes the oil companies and their biased studies or he has seen some other unbiased study. Or he really doesn't have proof one way or the other. And what he says following "I think..." is that the gasolines work as advertised but that its not something you'd notice in one tank of gas. The oil companies have only claimed just this.
So the gist of his story is not that the top-tier gasoline don't work, it is exactly what I said a long time ago in the thread, is the detergant package worth the extra cost? Mike does not address this at all. What he (and we) need to work through is the average price of premium gas at any one of the big guys, top-tier or not. They all charge more for their gas. Then compare that to "Fred's" or any other non-big guy charges for their comparable octane gas. What does that difference per gallon come to? Let's say $0.20/gallon or $2 per ten gallon fill-up.
Now Gman has paid $62 for a case of Red Line SI-1. How much do you add per tank/fill-up? Mike says "I add a smidgen..." How much is a smidgen? How much is in a bottle or a case. I assume it will last more than 30 fill-ups but I'd like to see the math. Something like a bottle is 8 fluid ounces and we add 1 ounce per fill up so 8 fill ups per bottle times 12 bottles per case gets you 96 fill ups. So the variance of 64 fill ups with the Red Line SI-1 saves you $128. Is that a year, every six months? It should be a simple exercise to walk through.
Again Mike never says in his article that top-tier gas is bad, doesn't work as advertised or should be shunned in favor of cheaper gas.
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Originally Posted by kscarrol' post='439617' date='Jun 25 2007, 03:02 PM
In reading Mike's story I can't disagree with what he said but if you are looking for expertise on gasoline, what makes Mike so qualified? Being the technical expert of Roundel? Hardly a chemical engineer! But I don't know that...
As for his unbiased view, yes unbiased but hardly sounds like a well researched, concrete proof that there is something wrong with top tier gasolines. Statements such as: "However, I suspect even the good stuff is well below European detergency standards, as well as European sulfur standards."
Why suspect? Surely he can do some research for his article and find out the U.S. and European standards. Haven't had time to dig myself but will try later today.
"I think it would reduce the amount of carbon deposit build up on the intake valves and the tops of the pistons vice lesser gasoline if Top TIer fuel was used consistently over a long period. Deposit build-up is gradual, taking place over many miles, until it finally shows up either as a drivability problem (valves) or pinging because the knock sensing ignition system operational parameters have been exceeded by the amount of carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons. This is why you don't notice any difference in the short term."
Why does he think this? Either he believes the oil companies and their biased studies or he has seen some other unbiased study. Or he really doesn't have proof one way or the other. And what he says following "I think..." is that the gasolines work as advertised but that its not something you'd notice in one tank of gas. The oil companies have only claimed just this.
So the gist of his story is not that the top-tier gasoline don't work, it is exactly what I said a long time ago in the thread, is the detergant package worth the extra cost? Mike does not address this at all. What he (and we) need to work through is the average price of premium gas at any one of the big guys, top-tier or not. They all charge more for their gas. Then compare that to "Fred's" or any other non-big guy charges for their comparable octane gas. What does that difference per gallon come to? Let's say $0.20/gallon or $2 per ten gallon fill-up.
Now Gman has paid $62 for a case of Red Line SI-1. How much do you add per tank/fill-up? Mike says "I add a smidgen..." How much is a smidgen? How much is in a bottle or a case. I assume it will last more than 30 fill-ups but I'd like to see the math. Something like a bottle is 8 fluid ounces and we add 1 ounce per fill up so 8 fill ups per bottle times 12 bottles per case gets you 96 fill ups. So the variance of 64 fill ups with the Red Line SI-1 saves you $128. Is that a year, every six months? It should be a simple exercise to walk through.
Again Mike never says in his article that top-tier gas is bad, doesn't work as advertised or should be shunned in favor of cheaper gas.
As for his unbiased view, yes unbiased but hardly sounds like a well researched, concrete proof that there is something wrong with top tier gasolines. Statements such as: "However, I suspect even the good stuff is well below European detergency standards, as well as European sulfur standards."
Why suspect? Surely he can do some research for his article and find out the U.S. and European standards. Haven't had time to dig myself but will try later today.
"I think it would reduce the amount of carbon deposit build up on the intake valves and the tops of the pistons vice lesser gasoline if Top TIer fuel was used consistently over a long period. Deposit build-up is gradual, taking place over many miles, until it finally shows up either as a drivability problem (valves) or pinging because the knock sensing ignition system operational parameters have been exceeded by the amount of carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons. This is why you don't notice any difference in the short term."
Why does he think this? Either he believes the oil companies and their biased studies or he has seen some other unbiased study. Or he really doesn't have proof one way or the other. And what he says following "I think..." is that the gasolines work as advertised but that its not something you'd notice in one tank of gas. The oil companies have only claimed just this.
So the gist of his story is not that the top-tier gasoline don't work, it is exactly what I said a long time ago in the thread, is the detergant package worth the extra cost? Mike does not address this at all. What he (and we) need to work through is the average price of premium gas at any one of the big guys, top-tier or not. They all charge more for their gas. Then compare that to "Fred's" or any other non-big guy charges for their comparable octane gas. What does that difference per gallon come to? Let's say $0.20/gallon or $2 per ten gallon fill-up.
Now Gman has paid $62 for a case of Red Line SI-1. How much do you add per tank/fill-up? Mike says "I add a smidgen..." How much is a smidgen? How much is in a bottle or a case. I assume it will last more than 30 fill-ups but I'd like to see the math. Something like a bottle is 8 fluid ounces and we add 1 ounce per fill up so 8 fill ups per bottle times 12 bottles per case gets you 96 fill ups. So the variance of 64 fill ups with the Red Line SI-1 saves you $128. Is that a year, every six months? It should be a simple exercise to walk through.
Again Mike never says in his article that top-tier gas is bad, doesn't work as advertised or should be shunned in favor of cheaper gas.
Anyway, specifics: a case of SI-1 cleaner cost me $62. That's 12-15oz bottles, which at the suggestions of the manufacturer are fed into the gas tank at 3 oz. per 10 gallons. That works out to 600 gallons of "Fred's Gas" treated to the tune of 10.33-cents per gallon. A local equivalent of Fred's was selling 93-octane in Brighton, MA today for $3.09.9/gallon..."Top Tier V-Power 93" was selling about 1 mile away for $3.27.9/gallon. Looks like SI-1 is the 7.66-cents/gallon winner here. Of course, when I put the SI-1 into the tank I know it's there...
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Originally Posted by ExGMan' post='439659' date='Jun 25 2007, 03:54 PM
This is beginning to sound like some of the discussions I used to have with people regarding the terminal ballistic characteristics of firearms & cartidges, adequacy of tactical holsters, yada yada. Lots of opinions, feelings, suspicions etc. but all largely subjective. In terms of provenance, I think Mike Miller has seen the inside of more engines, and has addressed more problems than any twenty+ people on this board, maybe more. Chemical engineer? Dunno.
Anyway, specifics: a case of SI-1 cleaner cost me $62. That's 12-15oz bottles, which at the suggestions of the manufacturer are fed into the gas tank at 3 oz. per 10 gallons. That works out to 600 gallons of "Fred's Gas" treated to the tune of 10.33-cents per gallon. A local equivalent of Fred's was selling 93-octane in Brighton, MA today for $3.09.9/gallon..."Top Tier V-Power 93" was selling about 1 mile away for $3.27.9/gallon. Looks like SI-1 is the 7.66-cents/gallon winner here. Of course, when I put the SI-1 into the tank I know it's there...
Anyway, specifics: a case of SI-1 cleaner cost me $62. That's 12-15oz bottles, which at the suggestions of the manufacturer are fed into the gas tank at 3 oz. per 10 gallons. That works out to 600 gallons of "Fred's Gas" treated to the tune of 10.33-cents per gallon. A local equivalent of Fred's was selling 93-octane in Brighton, MA today for $3.09.9/gallon..."Top Tier V-Power 93" was selling about 1 mile away for $3.27.9/gallon. Looks like SI-1 is the 7.66-cents/gallon winner here. Of course, when I put the SI-1 into the tank I know it's there...
, but if you want to toss around comments like "Lots of opinions, feelings, suspicions etc. but all largely subjective", you should make sure that finger is pointed not just my way but Mike's as well no matter how many engines he has seen the inside of. Statements starting with "I think" and "I suspect" are opinions, not facts. And I know he has seen WAY more than me! 
And of course your suggestion that perhaps the top tier guys aren't really putting these detergent packages in the gasoline ("Of course, when I put the SI-1 into the tank I know it's there...") smacks of suspicion and opinion. 
You are implying out right fraud on the part the oil companies.Finally you don't repsond to the what I point out about Mike's article, that he basically says the detergent packages in the top-tier gasolines work as advertised. On the pure cost issue, your are spot on! I may have to give some of this SI-1 stuff a try, let us know how it seems to be working for you.
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From: Houston, Tx
My Ride: 2005 530i, 1995 318ic
retired circa 1970 2002, , circa 1985 320, 1998 528i, 1998 740i
remember top tier is a group of companies that was formed without complete oil industry collaboration. For example, ExxonMobil chose not to join for a variety of reasons even though their gas DOES meet the requirements. That was a senior management decision after weighing the pros and cons. So in other words, do not be completely led astray by the marketing. Much of the issue around clean engines had more to do with a certain car manufacturer with engine design flaws than it did with the gasoline being used (not BMW). Dont waste your money on all those additives.