EURO NCAP Crash Test Results for E60
12-02-2004, 07:38 AM
#191
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After reading all the posts in this thread (finally) I don't see why there's even a debate going on. Some people are going off on tangents rather than sticking to the point. And the point is that BMW had to modify the E60 car to get better NCAP test results. This is NOT up for debtate or interpretation. It is a FACT.
Another point of note is that BMW has refused to say what the mods were exactly and which cars have them and which don't (i.e. when did they become part of the new builds - Sept, Oct, Nov??). Why have they refused to do this? For obvious reasons - lawsuits, etc. Will they get away with it? Time will tell - reminds me of the M3 blown engine fiasco from several years ago. In any case BMW is refusing to divulge this information.
Now, people ask how important the NCAP test results are, etc. If they are really meaningful, etc. Who CARES? We can speculate right or wrong all we want, but if BMW is being dishonest and keeping things secret, then we will never know. BMW may not think it's a big deal, and it may not be, but they are keeping things secret in fear of lawsuits, recalls, etc. *OR* BMW may KNOW it's a big deal and they are keeping things secret for the same reasons. Point is we don't know and we have a right to know. As much as we like BMW cars, we have to realize that BMW is a business and it's run like any other business - ugly and not always in the best interest of the consumer.
Another point of note is that BMW has refused to say what the mods were exactly and which cars have them and which don't (i.e. when did they become part of the new builds - Sept, Oct, Nov??). Why have they refused to do this? For obvious reasons - lawsuits, etc. Will they get away with it? Time will tell - reminds me of the M3 blown engine fiasco from several years ago. In any case BMW is refusing to divulge this information.
Now, people ask how important the NCAP test results are, etc. If they are really meaningful, etc. Who CARES? We can speculate right or wrong all we want, but if BMW is being dishonest and keeping things secret, then we will never know. BMW may not think it's a big deal, and it may not be, but they are keeping things secret in fear of lawsuits, recalls, etc. *OR* BMW may KNOW it's a big deal and they are keeping things secret for the same reasons. Point is we don't know and we have a right to know. As much as we like BMW cars, we have to realize that BMW is a business and it's run like any other business - ugly and not always in the best interest of the consumer.
12-02-2004, 07:42 AM
#192
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Dec 2 2004, 11:38 AM
After reading all the posts in this thread (finally) I don't see why there's even a debate going on. Some people are going off on tangents rather than sticking to the point. And the point is that BMW had to modify the E60 car to get better NCAP test results. This is NOT up for debtate or interpretation. It is a FACT.
Another point of note is that BMW has refused to say what the mods were exactly and which cars have them and which don't (i.e. when did they become part of the new builds - Sept, Oct, Nov??). Why have they refused to do this? For obvious reasons - lawsuits, etc. Will they get away with it? Time will tell - reminds me of the M3 blown engine fiasco from several years ago. In any case BMW is refusing to divulge this information.
Now, people ask how important the NCAP test results are, etc.? If they are really meaningful, etc.? Who CARES? We can speculate right or wrong all we want, but if BMW is being dishonest and keeping things secret, then we will never know. BMW may not think it's a big deal, and it may not be, but they are keeping things secret in fear of lawsuits, recalls, etc. *OR* BMW may KNOW it's a big deal and they are keeping things secret for the same reasons. Point is we don't know and we have a right to know. As much as we like BMW cars, we have to realize that BMW is a business and it's run like any other business - ugly.
Another point of note is that BMW has refused to say what the mods were exactly and which cars have them and which don't (i.e. when did they become part of the new builds - Sept, Oct, Nov??). Why have they refused to do this? For obvious reasons - lawsuits, etc. Will they get away with it? Time will tell - reminds me of the M3 blown engine fiasco from several years ago. In any case BMW is refusing to divulge this information.
Now, people ask how important the NCAP test results are, etc.? If they are really meaningful, etc.? Who CARES? We can speculate right or wrong all we want, but if BMW is being dishonest and keeping things secret, then we will never know. BMW may not think it's a big deal, and it may not be, but they are keeping things secret in fear of lawsuits, recalls, etc. *OR* BMW may KNOW it's a big deal and they are keeping things secret for the same reasons. Point is we don't know and we have a right to know. As much as we like BMW cars, we have to realize that BMW is a business and it's run like any other business - ugly.
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well said
12-02-2004, 09:21 AM
#193
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OK, OK
If BMW issue a safety recall on the e60 on the grounds of the low NCAP star scores, I will gladly eat a large portion of humble pie, my hat and whatever other tasty treats are available at the time.
If however, there is no recall issued then we can only come to one of two conclusions based on the camp you fall into:
#1) BMW feel *genuinely* that safety in older e60's is NOT an issue. BMW have done the redesign to window-dress their NCAP scores, and avoid future sales & marketing "difficulties".
#2) BMW are engaging is a huge cover-up to supress the fact that the e60 poses a significant safety risk to it's occupants.
If a recall is not issued, which of these scenarios is more likely?
If BMW issue a safety recall on the e60 on the grounds of the low NCAP star scores, I will gladly eat a large portion of humble pie, my hat and whatever other tasty treats are available at the time.
If however, there is no recall issued then we can only come to one of two conclusions based on the camp you fall into:
#1) BMW feel *genuinely* that safety in older e60's is NOT an issue. BMW have done the redesign to window-dress their NCAP scores, and avoid future sales & marketing "difficulties".
#2) BMW are engaging is a huge cover-up to supress the fact that the e60 poses a significant safety risk to it's occupants.
If a recall is not issued, which of these scenarios is more likely?
12-02-2004, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by browellm' date='Dec 2 2004, 11:21 AM
OK, OK
If BMW issue a safety recall on the e60 on the grounds of the low NCAP star scores, I will gladly eat a large portion of humble pie, my hat and whatever other tasty treats are available at the time.
If however, there is no recall issued then we can only come to one of two conclusions based on the camp you fall into:
#1)? BMW feel *genuinely* that safety in older e60's is NOT an issue.? BMW have done the redesign to window-dress their NCAP scores, and avoid future sales & marketing "difficulties".
#2) BMW are engaging is a huge cover-up to supress the fact that the e60 poses a significant safety risk to it's occupants.
If a recall is not issued, which of these scenarios is more likely?
If BMW issue a safety recall on the e60 on the grounds of the low NCAP star scores, I will gladly eat a large portion of humble pie, my hat and whatever other tasty treats are available at the time.
If however, there is no recall issued then we can only come to one of two conclusions based on the camp you fall into:
#1)? BMW feel *genuinely* that safety in older e60's is NOT an issue.? BMW have done the redesign to window-dress their NCAP scores, and avoid future sales & marketing "difficulties".
#2) BMW are engaging is a huge cover-up to supress the fact that the e60 poses a significant safety risk to it's occupants.
If a recall is not issued, which of these scenarios is more likely?
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They may recall our cars, but they have to first weigh the cost of the retrofit versus the impact of letting well alone be.
IMHO I think option one is the scenario they are faced with and that they are sitting around a large conference table in Munich (BTW the 4cyl building is under renovation) to decide how to play their cards. And as Iceman keeps reminding us, they are monitoring this board and I am sure this thread with great interest.
12-02-2004, 11:01 AM
#195
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@urbo73, well put.
All, Just got a reply from BMW UK following my email, the party line remains the same than earlier replies. I obviously replied saying that the 4 star rating was achieved after extensive mods and if they feel confident the ar is safe with or without they will have no problem in providing me with a list of these changes....
Let's see if anybody follow up...I might write a letter to BMW UK CEO and see what that yields if anything beyond the official party line.....
All, Just got a reply from BMW UK following my email, the party line remains the same than earlier replies. I obviously replied saying that the 4 star rating was achieved after extensive mods and if they feel confident the ar is safe with or without they will have no problem in providing me with a list of these changes....
Let's see if anybody follow up...I might write a letter to BMW UK CEO and see what that yields if anything beyond the official party line.....
12-02-2004, 11:07 AM
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I think that writing to car magazines might have more of an effect than writing to BMW. We could ask (at least in the US) "Car and Driver" for instance why the different ratings in the US and Europe in terms of safety for the E60? Are the European tests tougher? Did the US tests miss something? Is BMW hiding something? I can see such a letter to the magazine, if published, stirring up the pot a bit.
12-02-2004, 11:11 AM
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Sorry, too lazy to read the complete thread. If the NCAP rating is less than 4 (say 3) does that mean that the car is unsafe, or does that mean that it just doesn't get the superstar rating that says it exceeds requirements? From what I have read, I am unsure if the speculation from this is that BMW is enhancing the design because they are unsafe, or simply because they strive to get that superstar rating.
12-02-2004, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Dec 2 2004, 02:07 PM
I think that writing to car magazines might have more of an effect than writing to BMW. We could ask (at least in the US) "Car and Driver" for instance why the different ratings in the US and Europe in terms of safety for the E60? Are the European tests tougher? Did the US tests miss something? Is BMW hiding something? I can see such a letter to the magazine, if published, stirring up the pot a bit.
[snapback]63517[/snapback]
12-02-2004, 11:17 AM
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Aaron, I don't know the anwer to your question, but if it's the latter then the test is silly. To me a car is either safe or not safe. You can apply a scale of 1-5, 1-10, whatever you want, and clearly define that scale.
But how can you be TOO safe just for marketing purposes? Do you get what I mean? Would 5 stars mean I would feel BETTER after a crash?
But how can you be TOO safe just for marketing purposes? Do you get what I mean? Would 5 stars mean I would feel BETTER after a crash?
12-02-2004, 12:26 PM
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