PraiseTheLowered

Yeah but my ancestors learned english and forced their children to learn it, they adapted to US customs and culture and integrated themselves out in public.

most italians only spoke italian inside the home and for a while it wasnt taught at all, so its not the same in the comparison.

Italian communities supported the greater US culture and paid their damn taxes.

-Mike-

I only have a problem with the illegal immigrants, as does Arizona and US government.

I believe it is foolish to give any illegal immigrant the benefit of the doubt and assume they want to better their life. That makes for a great sob story, but that's about it.

You're a technical guy....it's like opening your firewall up and trusting all connections are business oriented and nobody would ever launch attacks on your corporate assets. No...you deny everything and explicitly permit.

Did you know Phoenix is the primary hub for drug distribution in the entire US? It is all funneled in through Mexico.

If you want to come to this country, go through the proper visa applications, background checks, etc

Gene

exactly, do you know how many family members and family friends I have in the Philippines waiting to come migrate here legally, do you know how long this process takes...given the length they still continue to wait patiently for years hoping to be able to come here and better their lives while contributing to this country, sometimes having to re-apply several times. Why should ones proximity to the US border, impatience, and disregard for our countries laws be enough to give them a "pass".

Funny how immigration, race, and nationality are interchanged (correctly and incorrectly) so often......


I applaud this thread and its poster's for mostly staying on topic. But as V somewhat inferred earlier, nothing will come of this but long winded posts, exhausted finger tips and some spikes in blood pressure....GL with this thread...I'm out...

wolf

I am not in support of racial profiling but it seems that the discrimination claims are often used as a tool by activists that don't like a law like this being used to address what has become a clear violation of the law.

For example: In one of the towns near my home in the Metro DC area, people had begun violating zoning laws packing excessive numbers of residents into single family homes. So - instead of a quiet suburban community there are suddenly homes overflowing with residents, cars everywhere, noise, trash, etc. Now it so happened that the people doing this were largely Latino.

When the residents and the county started enforcing zoning laws out came the cries of "bigotry" by the Latino community. It is interesting that when it was asked "are the zoning laws being broken", the Latino activists didn't really have any answers to that - they just didn't like that these homes, largely filled with Latinos were being broken up. It was along the lines of - Yes the law is being broken, but I don't like the way you went about figuring out I was breaking the law and doing something about it because you used "racial profiling" to catch me... I don't really think the intent was to "target Latinos" but to target homes that were in blatant violation of zoning and enforce the laws there were there for a reason.

On a similar note I recall that there was HUGE opposition to using the "E-verify" system which would require all employers to use a central validation system before hiring anyone for a job. There were all kinds of cries about why the system wouldn't work, shouldn't be used, etc. Again, in my eye this seems to be concern that the tool would really work and catch people here illegally.

Frankly as a US Citizen I would have no problem carrying and extra document to prove my legitimacy if it helped the country in addressing a greater problem.

I guess if I were Latino and felt that I was being stopped for no reason on an excessive basis to produce papers I wouldn't like that. However, it seems the activists don't even want a single stop and it appears the underlying issue is they are very concerned that the ability to check proof of citizenship will be an effective tool in identifying people here illegally.

sdg1871

My own concern about the AZ law is the likelihood that it will lead to profiling. If zoning laws were being flouted in the town ypu mentioned then of course they should be enforced. Of course, if the town looked the other way on zoning abuse by non Latinos then the Latinos would have a legitimate beef.

swajames

Wolf, employers are absolutely required to verify eligibility for work in all cases today. A form I-9 must be completed upon hire. This confirms citizenship or other valid authorization to work (e.g. a visa which permits the holder to work in the United States). Those rules are, clearly, being flouted when illegal immigrants are paid for work. The Social Security Administration also verifies immigration status before issuing the SSN to a non-citizen.

On the wider point, I do believe that the discrimination concerns are valid. As we've said before, I suspect that few opponents of this law are actually proponents of illegal immigration. The issue is threefold.

Firstly, the law is, as is so often the case, an attempt to close the stable door well after the horse has bolted. The real issue here is the level of Federal enforcement of border security which drives the (relative) ease with which immigrants can, apparently, illegally bypass the system. This law is, in my view, less about actually tackling the problem and more about opportunist point-scoring to win political capital using the very weakest members of society (the poor and the unrepresented) as a political football and actually inflicting collateral damage on citizens and legal residents who happen to be in some ethnic groups. As John said, an immigrant white Anglo-Saxon European is probably now under less suspicion and risk in some circumstances than an American of Latino descent. Can that be right?

Secondly, the enforcement action should be directed more towards those who employ and take advantage of illegal labor. This is related to point one. If Arizona were going hard after employers, you'd see much less pushback. As it happens, they're going after the easier route and the softer target in the unrepresented individuals. Why? There's far more political capital in rounding up a family of immigrants and sending them home than in clamping down on those who provide the reason for them to be here in the first place.

Thirdly, as Gene said, the other issue is that the process for legal immigration into the US is fundamentally broken. It is not that the process should be easy, that's not the issue, it is that layer upon layer of bureaucracy mean the process simply doesn't work as it could or should. As an example, the US is still handing out green cards given away in lotteries while high-earning net contributor foreign-born workers are often left waiting years and years for theirs. Reason goes out the window in cases like this. Immigration reform is overdue - and is probably at the heart of the real solution. I don't believe the same can necessarily be said for the opportunistic laws we see in Arizona.

pjinca

Well, I am neither an activist, nor an advocate for those who break the law. I actually think that E-Verify system you mentioned would be a great idea. Again, I AM a natural born citizen so I am not afraid of a verification process.
My problem is I do not feel the need to travel the interstates with proof of citizenship, nor should I be forced to do so. As Scott mentioned above it's not the law itself that bothers me, it's the execution. The fact that if you are NOT Latino you have little to no worry that you can get dragged to jail if you don;t show proof of citizenship. THAT is what bothers with the Arizona law.

pjinca

Bro, that is a great thing, it is good to speak more than one language. Ours is the only country I have ever been to where speaking another language wasn't praised, and I have been to my fair share and way more than most Americans. Each of my parents speak 5 languages fluently, both speak: Italian, French, Spanish and English - my mom also speaks Portuguese and my dad speaks German.
I can agree that as time goes on immigrant communities (not just Mexicans but all of them) are less inclined to assimilate themselves into American culture and society. The ridiculous hyphenation and politically correct naming has got to have something to do with it. For example, I detest being called a Hispanic-American because I was born here, I fought and bled for my country, do not make me any less of an American than a full one. My parents are not from here, but I was born here and have never known any other citizenship - I am merely an American.

To quote my FAVORITE president ever:
"There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all... The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic... There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else." Teddy Roosevelt

(he said this nearly 100 years ago)

LBimmer

Typical liberal statement, "if you don't agree with me your a bigot, hater, racist, blah blah blah..that race card is getting worn out pretty fast. This isn't the 1800s anymore there's no "Lynch Mobs" running around. You don't think if cops pull over this "TALL BLONDE SWEDE" you speak of, and he doesn't speak english and has no drivers license they aren't going to want to see his papers, too? My family is half swedish and when they immigrated here, they did it LEGALLY. The fact is illegal immigration of any race costs LEGAL CITIZEN TAXPAYERS billions of dollars per year. They cost Arizona about 2.7 billion in 2009...California, 9 BILLION (http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/ar...6730a577c.html).I'm all for immigration, my great grandfather, great aunts and uncles were LEGAL immigrants...But, they went through a LEGAL PROCESS to become LEGAL CITIZENS, they didn't just run across the damn border. In some countries (Iran, North Korea), if you sneak across their borders and get caught, you WILL be sent to labor camps for however long they want. And thats if they dont put a bullet in your head first. The fact is, these people in Arizona have nothing against Mexicans. My sister and in-laws live in Tucson, and they are some of the nicest, NON-RACIST people you would ever meet, and they are for this law. If it were a flood of Canadians coming in from the Northern Border, they would feel the same way towards them. 70% of the population of Arizona was FOR this law and numbers don't lie. I am not racist and have no problem with Mexicans at all. I think Mexicans are great people and have a great work ethic and I'm all for them immigrating to America, just legally!

Alpine White Girl

lovely post.