Obama's Healthcare Plan
07-22-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by craigm1841' post='950671' date='Jul 22 2009, 03:43 PM
I am suprised to see you taking such shots at Bush. He was far from elequint (spelling), but wasn't a dumb man. I generally think of you as one of the more logical and reasonable members on this board and i tend to respect your opinions regardless of your point of view... not so much in this thread unfortunately.
...and the healtcare? remember back in the day, in the military (oh, the memories
), remember those awesome days sitting at the health clinic if you were sick or needed something? remember how awesome it was to get sub-standard service and there was nothing you could do about it because even if you had a choice, all the doctors sucked?
maybe your experience with socialized health care (the only kind Americans have experienced) in the military was better then mine because you were a special ops guy and you might have had your own little section at the clinic, but i didnt do special ops on a regular basis. I wasnt a tabbed ranger or a PJ or a seal. I got run of the mill socialized healthcare, military style, and it sucked.
Everyone in America can be as good as they choose to be. It easier for some people, but is what is special about our country, the poorest of the poor can still aspire to and ultimately acheive the American Dream if they want to. It is not my responsibility to carry the weak. I worked my ass off every day. Why should my money pay for someone elses healthcare, and why should my healthcare suffer for the masses?
Healthcare IS NOT AN ENTITLEMENT. it is a privelage bestowed upon those who work hard enough to afford it or work for a company good enough to provide it.
...and the healtcare? remember back in the day, in the military (oh, the memories
), remember those awesome days sitting at the health clinic if you were sick or needed something? remember how awesome it was to get sub-standard service and there was nothing you could do about it because even if you had a choice, all the doctors sucked?maybe your experience with socialized health care (the only kind Americans have experienced) in the military was better then mine because you were a special ops guy and you might have had your own little section at the clinic, but i didnt do special ops on a regular basis. I wasnt a tabbed ranger or a PJ or a seal. I got run of the mill socialized healthcare, military style, and it sucked.
Everyone in America can be as good as they choose to be. It easier for some people, but is what is special about our country, the poorest of the poor can still aspire to and ultimately acheive the American Dream if they want to. It is not my responsibility to carry the weak. I worked my ass off every day. Why should my money pay for someone elses healthcare, and why should my healthcare suffer for the masses?
Healthcare IS NOT AN ENTITLEMENT. it is a privelage bestowed upon those who work hard enough to afford it or work for a company good enough to provide it.
). The military doesn't attract teh best docs because of the crappy pay and the fear of getting shot at. Doctors in Britain do not live substandardly, they make a fine living (around $80K pounds from what I've read) and that won't scare away the best and brightest.We are truly blinded here by the doom and gloom people who are afraid of change.
I can't remember who said it but the quote went something like: "Great societies are judged not on what they build but on how they take care for the people who live in the society - rich and poor".
The same way we provide a free education so that the less fortunate can at least aspire to be great leaders and business men/women (referencing you point on we are what we choose to be here) the same can be said for healthcare. How many great minds have we lost simply because the weren't covered? How many lives of potentially great Americans have been wasted due to not having an insurance card when they got the hospital?
I also have worked my ass off since I was 17 and have been able to have healthcare taken care of the whole time. I also had parents who were both executives and were provide health insurance when needed. Still something is wrong when an insurance company can drop you like a rock when you actually get an illness like cancer.
BTW, I also value your opinions as well, an I do try to be reasonable. Just some things I feel need more passion than others. AS you know I was in the military, I was also in the WTC when it got hit, and I wanted to reenlist that day. However, nothing Bushie did since then ever convinced me he was anything other than what I stated earlier. Because as a veteran I cannot abide the sacrifice of good soldiers lives in a war that was started based on lies and propaganda. Especially started by someone who did everything he could to avoid fighting himself.
07-22-2009, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='950661' date='Jul 22 2009, 03:35 PM
...There are plenty ideas of how to do it, look to our North...
As friendly advice for this thread, I think it would be best to keep the Canadian healthcare system out from this topic of discussion. IMO, it's not really the ideal model to use as an example. For your bathroom reading pleasure, here's some interesting insight into the Canadian Socialized Healthcare system from the viewpoint of a Canadian: The Advocate
07-22-2009, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='950701' date='Jul 22 2009, 03:57 PM
Still something is wrong when an insurance company can drop you like a rock when you actually get an illness like cancer.
07-22-2009, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC' post='950717' date='Jul 22 2009, 04:03 PM
Or you can wait 8 weeks just for radiation treatment in Canada. People with money go outside of Canada for cancer treatment.
07-22-2009, 03:08 PM
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To those who may say they work hard to take care of themselves.
Your current comfort zone comes about because someone else already pays for your health care. It may be an insurer, it may be an employer - but in most cases, more likely than not, it is not currently you. Someone else has your financial back. Your $300 per month premiums and your co-pay aren't getting close to the true cost of your care.
It's absolutely not about hard work. Some of the least privileged members of society are probably some of the hardest workers. But health insurance is incredibly expensive, for many it is quite simply unaffordable.
No one is taking care of those who do not have an employer or an insurer to pick up the tab. I don't think a civilized society should ever accept this.
Ask yourself one question. If you or your family needed significant care, and there was no employer or insurer to step in and pick up the tab, could you truly afford to be sick in this country?
For most of us the answer is no. No matter how hard we may think we work.
Your current comfort zone comes about because someone else already pays for your health care. It may be an insurer, it may be an employer - but in most cases, more likely than not, it is not currently you. Someone else has your financial back. Your $300 per month premiums and your co-pay aren't getting close to the true cost of your care.
It's absolutely not about hard work. Some of the least privileged members of society are probably some of the hardest workers. But health insurance is incredibly expensive, for many it is quite simply unaffordable.
No one is taking care of those who do not have an employer or an insurer to pick up the tab. I don't think a civilized society should ever accept this.
Ask yourself one question. If you or your family needed significant care, and there was no employer or insurer to step in and pick up the tab, could you truly afford to be sick in this country?
For most of us the answer is no. No matter how hard we may think we work.
07-22-2009, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='950724' date='Jul 22 2009, 04:07 PM
IMHO, waiting 8 weeks is better than dying with none.
07-22-2009, 03:12 PM
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As a compromise:
My parents are from Chile, an actually stable Latin American democracy (go figure). Anyway, the system there is (was?) a hybrid. They had health insurance and private hospitals and docs like we have here, however, every doctor was required to give a certain number of days a month to the government run hospitals and clinics free of charge to maintain their licenses.
Also in Chile, every employer with 50+ employees is required to offer free onsite daycare for their employees. These made enough sense that Clinton actually sent Senators there in 95 to see how things work and how they do it. Works pretty well actually, and they manage to do it and also be the ONLY South American country that doesn't owe the US one red cent. Amazing isn't it?
My parents are from Chile, an actually stable Latin American democracy (go figure). Anyway, the system there is (was?) a hybrid. They had health insurance and private hospitals and docs like we have here, however, every doctor was required to give a certain number of days a month to the government run hospitals and clinics free of charge to maintain their licenses.
Also in Chile, every employer with 50+ employees is required to offer free onsite daycare for their employees. These made enough sense that Clinton actually sent Senators there in 95 to see how things work and how they do it. Works pretty well actually, and they manage to do it and also be the ONLY South American country that doesn't owe the US one red cent. Amazing isn't it?
07-22-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='950725' date='Jul 22 2009, 04:08 PM
Ask yourself one question. If you or your family needed significant care, and there was no employer or insurer to step in and pick up the tab, could you truly afford to be sick in this country?
If I wanted healthcare right now, I would pay for it.
07-22-2009, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC' post='950735' date='Jul 22 2009, 04:12 PM
I have no healthcare at the moment. I don't want Obama's charity healthcare bullsh*t.
If I wanted healthcare at the right now, I would pay for it.
If I wanted healthcare at the right now, I would pay for it.
Could you, for example, personally afford to pay for cancer treatment?
07-22-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC' post='950729' date='Jul 22 2009, 04:10 PM
Is says a lot about the quality of the healthcare, when people are willing to pay to go outside of Canada to get cancer treatment.
Maybe, but many disadvantaged people from Detroit go to Canada for medical treatment that they can't afford here, and don't ask a Canadian to travel to the US without supplemental insurance in case they get sick while here. The smart ones never would.