craigm1841

i read too quick. thanks guys!

roger: that would be hilarious. I am going to give them a chance to make right. The smoothie incident was a heat of the moment thing that would be very hard to replicate by planning!

swajames

Right, but hasn't Craig had multiple HPFP issues? And in any event, I don't think that 30-day fallback rule has such a requirement. Here in CA, if your car is away for 30 days for other than required maintenance you have a pretty open and shut Lemon case.

Clause 3(b) below from the Florida statute is the one that may be in point:

(3) It is presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been undertaken to conform a motor vehicle to the warranty if, during the Lemon Law rights period, either:

(a) The same nonconformity has been subject to repair at least three times by the manufacturer or its authorized service agent, plus a final attempt by the manufacturer to repair the motor vehicle if undertaken as provided for in paragraph (1)(a), and such nonconformity continues to exist; or

(b) The motor vehicle has been out of service by reason of repair of one or more nonconformities by the manufacturer, or its authorized service agent, for a cumulative total of 30 or more days, 60 or more days in the case of a recreational vehicle, exclusive of downtime for routine maintenance prescribed by the owner's manual. The manufacturer or its authorized service agent must have had at least one opportunity to inspect or repair the vehicle following receipt of the notification as provided in paragraph (1)(b). The 30-day period, or 60-day period in the case of a recreational vehicle, may be extended by any period of time during which repair services are not available to the consumer because of war, invasion, strike, fire, flood, or natural disaster.

It may just be that 30 days out of service is sufficient, and it doesn't seem to require the issues to be the same (so multiple different and even unrelated failures could seemingly qualify the car as a cumulative lemon).

sdg1871

The key under the multiple occurrences of the same problem provision is whether there have been at least three attemps by the dealer to fix the same problem. At that point, the consumer had to send a formal notice to manufacturer who gets a final attempt to fix the problem (as least as I read things quickly).

swajames

Not sure I agree, Scott. Clause 3(a) does indeed require 3 attempts, but 3(b) focuses only on time out of service (so one extended absence could essentially qualify the car as a Lemon). In this respect, the rules seem to pretty much mirror those here in CA. Clauses (a) and (b) seem to be capable of independent operation in this respect - it's either/or. In CA, if you don't have your car for 30 days within the qualifying period, you basically have a lemon case.

sdg1871

That's correct, you can get relief under both prongs. I had just responded with respect to the 3 times with the same problem prong. There is also a cumulative days out of service prong regardless of whether the problem is the same or not.

sdg1871

Here is the complete explanation of how the statute works from the Florida Dep't of Consumer Affairs:

Does the Lemon Law Apply to My Vehicle?
The Lemon Law program DOES NOT COVER USED CARS, vehicles that run only on tracks, off-road vehicles, trucks over 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight, motorcycles, mopeds or the living facilities of recreational vehicles. In order to find out if you could qualify for protection under the Lemon Law, please review the follow information or for additional assistance, call us today at 1-800-321-5366.


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Did you purchase or lease your vehicle NEW in the State of Florida?

The Florida Lemon Law applies to NEW or demonstrator motor vehicles which are sold or leased in the State of Florida. With a few exceptions, a previously titled vehicle (used car) is not covered by the Lemon Law.

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Does your vehicle have a defect or condition that substantially impairs the use, value or safety of the vehicle?

A substantial defect or condition is a problem that substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the vehicle. There is no easy answer to determine what types of defects or conditions substantially impair a vehicle?s use, value or safety. It depends on the facts of each case. Minor or trivial defects, or defects caused by accident, abuse, neglect, modification or alteration by anyone other than an authorized service agent are not covered.

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Have you taken the vehicle to the dealership or an authorized service agent at least 3 times for the SAME substantial defect or condition or has the vehicle been out of service for at least 15 cumulative calendar days due to one or more substantial defect or conditions?

There must be three repair attempts for the same defect or condition, OR at least 15 cumulative calendar days out of service for one or more defects or conditions, before submitting the Motor Vehicle Defect Notification . If you do not have the required number of repair attempts or days out of service, then continue to take the vehicle to the dealer for repairs.
Please Note: If your complaint is based on the vehicle being out of service for 15 or more days the manufacturer or its authorized agent has the opportunity to inspect or repair the vehicle. If the vehicle still does not conform to the warranty for a total of 30 or more days and the manufacturer has had the opportunity to repair, you are entitled to request arbitration.


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Have you mailed by registered or express mail, return receipt requested, to the manufacturer of your vehicle (not dealer) the MVDN form which is located in your Lemon Law Handbook provided at the time of purchase?

After you have either at least three failed repair attempts for the same problem OR at least 15 cumulative calendar days out of service, you must file the Motor Vehicle Defect Notification by registered mail, return receipt requested to the manufacturer to give the manufacturer a final repair attempt or inspection on your vehicle.

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Have you had a final repair attempt/inspection after the manufacturer received the MVDN?

If you put the manufacturer on notice for the defects or conditions, the manufacturer has 10 days from receipt of the MVDN to respond and direct you to a reasonable accessible repair facility to have a final repair attempt or inspection on your vehicle. If you receive no response from the manufacturer within 10 days after the date of receipt, the law states the manufacturer has then waived their right to the final repair attempt and you may proceed with your Lemon Law rights.

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Do you have work orders to verify the repairs to your vehicle?

You must have work orders to support your claim. If you do not have copies of the work orders, contact your dealer for a list of all repair work performed on your vehicle.
All cases have time limitations for when you can file a request. If you have a question about whether or not your vehicle falls within these time limitations, please contact our office at the numbers 1-800-321-5366 or 850-410-3807.
If you request arbitration under the failed repair attempts provision, you must have three failed repair attempts for the same defect prior to placing the manufacturer on notice of the defect and a final repair attempt after the notice is received. The defect must still exist after the final repair.
If you request arbitration under days out of service, you must give notice to the manufacturer after at least 15 cumulative calendar days out of service for multiple defects, but you must have at least 30 total days out of service before applying for arbitration.
Many manufacturers have a dispute settlement program that may be utilized to resolve your complaints about a vehicle you have purchased or leased. Participation in a manufacturer's program is only required prior to application to the State of Florida Lemon Law arbitration if the manufacturer has a program that is certified through this office. A listing of the certified programs may be found below. All other dispute settlement programs do not effect the filing time or requirements for arbitration through the State and do not require your participation.
If you answered YES to the six questions above, you could qualify for protection under the Florida Lemon Law.

Please call 1-800-321-5366 or 850-410-3807 to receive a Request for Arbitration Package by mail or download a Request for Arbitration Package online.


If you have any questions, call the Lemon Law Hotline at 1-800-321-5366 or 850-410-3807 for assistance. You can also contact us via email at cslemonlaw@doacs.state.fl.us.

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CWS530

Marc: HAHAHAHA!

Craig: Are you SURE there are no cliffs in Florida. If not, how about a bridge?

Richard in NC

That's the way it worked in NC with a '90 TBird. I had a hard starting issue. After 6 failed attempts to fix it, I talked to a lawyer re the lemon law. I had to send a certified letter requesting a final attempt at repair, or I'd invoke the lemon law and want a refunded purchase price. They did seem to fix the car (after 2 weeks in the shop) but I found another car and soon traded, taking a huuuge loss. But at least I was happy.

Re the HPFP, it by nature repeatedly fails. So they fix it this time. How can you force them to do a buy back if it fails again? In 30 days, in 90 days, or longer since it will appear to be fine for awhile.

v_therussian

WOW Craig, I feel bad that you have to go through all this crap - it is inexcusable that a brand such as BMW (who can easily start losing sales to Lexus or Infinity in an economy like ours is today) would continue tarnishing it's reputation like this. Especially, considering their overall strategy of moving to turbo-charged engines across the entire line-up! I think you should - if you have not yet - get the BMW NA involved in your situation.

At the very least, you should do what my friend did when his HPFP failed the last 4 times - he got BMW NA to actually refund him for the lease payments for the time that the car was getting fixed. In his case the car spent a cumulative month or so over the 4 times that the HPFP failed so far. They reimbursed him for a full month. That said, I think his HPFP failed again after that, so he should've lemon lawed it.

As to your dealership, it seems like their policies and attitudes should definitely be reported to BMW NA - seems like they are out of their fvcking minds to treat you like this!

And now, on to my favorite part of replying - the ball-busting


Oh yeah, big man! Made a woman cry!

v_therussian

I'm the Russian here, dude! WTF?