Despite of Mc Laren cheats ....
10-24-2007, 01:34 PM
#41
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i COMPLETELY understand the point you want to make, and yes, what you have said is true... but try to understand my points
-massa's team orders helped kimi. (if mclaren used any they would have been champions)
-and atleast ferrari did not screw with massa car in order to favour kimi (mclaren have done this with alonso)
-ron denis made a billion mistakes this season..perhaps more than in his entire life...
an really mclaren had good drivers (i hate them, but still there not so bad).. and ron denis completely failed to manage them, favouring the rookie over the champ...
i COMPLETELY understand the point you want to make, and yes, what you have said is true... but try to understand my points
-massa's team orders helped kimi. (if mclaren used any they would have been champions)
-and atleast ferrari did not screw with massa car in order to favour kimi (mclaren have done this with alonso)
-ron denis made a billion mistakes this season..perhaps more than in his entire life...
an really mclaren had good drivers (i hate them, but still there not so bad).. and ron denis completely failed to manage them, favouring the rookie over the champ...
10-25-2007, 09:23 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC' post='485632' date='Oct 24 2007, 11:22 PM
If Massa wanted any chance of driving for Ferrari next year, he had to follow the teams plan (team orders).
Everyone knows he could have won that race, first 3/4 of the race he was consistently faster than Kimi in lap times. But the way they handled it did not violate any team orders rule.
Everyone knows he could have won that race, first 3/4 of the race he was consistently faster than Kimi in lap times. But the way they handled it did not violate any team orders rule.
I'm not really arguing here the Ferrari pull off. Even though i called it a red baron trick. (I did it cuz i still think they are the ones in recent history to pull off most of them). But this is less important...
I'm talking more about the fundamental ideea behind it.
Are team orders ok in F1 and benefit F1? If they are then why aren't them allowed in the regulatios? If they are allowed under the scenes and all is ok only if you don't get caught, is that really good for the sport? What about the drivers? etc etc... those are the questions i seek answer to.
Why sometimes one calls an event wrooong and unfair and team order, and in other cases the same person says it's ok and it was team strategy and plan!?(and i'm not refering to anyone here...).
One can also do a comparison between the pit stop even at Mclaren with Hamilton an Alonso when Hamilton dissobeyed Ron Deniss and the whole team, and people said oooohh it's was ok for Hamilton to act that way, cuz if he didn't that would mean he would heed to a team order which is illegal in F1, and in much more clear scenarios like this with Ferrari it's all BEST INTEREST OF THE TEAM. How's that? If more, the situation with Mclaren was even less grave since this happened in qualy and in qualy the team can really make for a team strategy.
Anyway i'm pleased that some people relly understood what i was trying to say. Again i'm not trying to put anything or anyone down here.
10-25-2007, 11:47 AM
#43
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Anyway i'm pleased that some people relly understood what i was trying to say. Again i'm not trying to put anything or anyone down here.
[/quote]
Good discussion, no one's taking offense.
I have to say that we seem to be taking as truth the notion that Massa would have won the race and I am not sure that's correct. I just reviewed a tape of the race and the facts are that Massa was fast but fastest lap was traded back and forth throughout the race by Massa, Kimi and Hamilton. I don't think it was a sure thing that Massa would win. Kimi passed him for the lead at the last pit stop and only came out ahead by the narrowest of margins. (And so we can avoid the conspiracy theorys, Massa's last stop was faster than Kimi's.) I think Kimi won it on the track regardless of team ordes, team suggestions, team strategy, team policy or any other factor. At the end of the day, he was faster.
[/quote]
Good discussion, no one's taking offense.
I have to say that we seem to be taking as truth the notion that Massa would have won the race and I am not sure that's correct. I just reviewed a tape of the race and the facts are that Massa was fast but fastest lap was traded back and forth throughout the race by Massa, Kimi and Hamilton. I don't think it was a sure thing that Massa would win. Kimi passed him for the lead at the last pit stop and only came out ahead by the narrowest of margins. (And so we can avoid the conspiracy theorys, Massa's last stop was faster than Kimi's.) I think Kimi won it on the track regardless of team ordes, team suggestions, team strategy, team policy or any other factor. At the end of the day, he was faster.
10-25-2007, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BetterMakeWay' post='485990' date='Oct 25 2007, 07:23 PM
...
Are team orders ok in F1 and benefit F1? If they are then why aren't them allowed in the regulatios? If they are allowed under the scenes and all is ok only if you don't get caught, is that really good for the sport? What about the drivers? etc etc... those are the questions i seek answer to.
...
Are team orders ok in F1 and benefit F1? If they are then why aren't them allowed in the regulatios? If they are allowed under the scenes and all is ok only if you don't get caught, is that really good for the sport? What about the drivers? etc etc... those are the questions i seek answer to.
...
I think they should be, but they aren't.
Ferrari didn't gave Massa an order! So, it's not "OK, because they didn't get caught". Ever heard of ?in dubio pro reo?? If they did, it's NOT OK, but nobody knows. Understand?
In that case it was done very smart, and therefore they deserve the championship, because they found a way around... That's what lawyers do every day at court...
10-25-2007, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilchwitz' post='486056' date='Oct 25 2007, 12:47 PM
Kimi passed him for the lead at the last pit stop and only came out ahead by the narrowest of margins. (And so we can avoid the conspiracy theorys, Massa's last stop was faster than Kimi's.) I think Kimi won it on the track regardless of team ordes, team suggestions, team strategy, team policy or any other factor. At the end of the day, he was faster.
10-26-2007, 12:18 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by Iceman' post='486065' date='Oct 25 2007, 10:12 PM
Ever heard of ?in dubio pro reo??
10-26-2007, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Iceman' post='486065' date='Oct 25 2007, 11:12 PM
Team orders are not allowed.
I think they should be, but they aren't.
Ferrari didn't gave Massa an order! So, it's not "OK, because they didn't get caught". Ever heard of ?in dubio pro reo?? If they did, it's NOT OK, but nobody knows. Understand? In that case it was done very smart, and therefore they deserve the championship, because they found a way around...
That's what lawyers do every day at court...
I think they should be, but they aren't.
Ferrari didn't gave Massa an order! So, it's not "OK, because they didn't get caught". Ever heard of ?in dubio pro reo?? If they did, it's NOT OK, but nobody knows. Understand?
In that case it was done very smart, and therefore they deserve the championship, because they found a way around... That's what lawyers do every day at court...
10-26-2007, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BetterMakeWay' post='486355' date='Oct 26 2007, 01:39 PM
... So "in dubio pro reo" doesn't simply fit in.
It just seems you don't understand why...
10-29-2007, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Iceman' post='486598' date='Oct 27 2007, 12:50 AM
Oh yes, it does.
It just seems you don't understand why...
It just seems you don't understand why...
We're never gonna reach anything.
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