swajames

The data in post 27 relates to the Hockenheim Short track configuration. The Hockenheim Short track configuration is the Sport Auto test track. Put these two together, and you might just have the answer to your question

You may as well be asking why the Top Gear times are all recorded by The Stig and not by Horst van Saurma ( Sport Auto's editor and test driver).

The data Shebs posted is no more and no less reliable than any other magazine test data. It is a point of reference, it is one of many, and it is what it is...

bm323

I don't see this as responding to a debate, but "sweeping" statements you are not obliged to anyway

swajames

I'm absolutely right - you'd rather obviously misunderstood the context of the data that was being provided by the original poster.

bm323

ps you are mistaken on the above, you would have noticed that I don't engage in the meaningless threads that subjectively disparages or extol the F10 I can't help it if someone chooses not to exercise any due diligence analysing the so called "objective" interpretation of the data, not like to have what he/she supports questioned, shoots one who questions, and not try to understand the questions

Shebs

bm323

You came to this thread with the believe that the OP did not verify the data of Hockenheim Short and Autozeitung test track.

You wrongfully thought that two of the most respected magazines in Germany have taken their lap times from fastestlaps.com.

You did not even realize that the two tests in Sport Auto (F10 530d vs. E60 530i) were done two months apart.

You are arguing that the magazines professional drivers might no have driven the cars to the limit.

You are trying to eleminate the validity of all the rings and magazines and TV shows in the world by claiming that different dates and drivers invalidate lap times.

In your post 27 that you are referring to, you have posted the most wrong post in this whole thread.

All the lap times in post 27 are very logical. Yes the 03' E46 M3 CSL is faster than the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit. The CSL had 360 hp and 1385 kg of weight (259.9 hp/ton), the 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit had 381 ps and 1474 kg (258.4 hp/ton). The difference in lap times is 0.2 s. What is wrong with that? Did you think that because a car is named Porsche, it has to be faster than a car called BMW? The 08' Porsche Carrera S 9(with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton) is faster than the M3 CSL if you check the lap times.

Furthermore, in Nordschleife (Nurburgring), the M3 CSL (360 hp and 1385 kg of weight and 259.9 ps/ton), achieved exactly the same lap time of 7:50 as the 08' Carrera S (with 385 hp and 1425 kg and 270 hp/ton). It was 9 seconds faster than the 05' Carrera S on Nordschleife. Are you surprised now?

The same logic applies to the rest of your list in post 27.

You are the one who is throwing away subjective comments.

Before starting this post I read every word and chart of the 4 articles (2 in Autozeitung and 2 in Sport Auto) mentioned before I wrote the post. I even made sure that the cars under testing were equipped with the same suspension packages and tyre dimensions (both cars in Sport auto did not have ARS, however the F10 was equipped with Dynamic Damping Control, both cars in Autozeitung were equipped with ARS).

You came into the thread thinking that the OP did not do his homework, and you are just not able to back off.

Shebs

Yes swajames, you are absolutely right. I think he did not understand the original data, unfortunately.

bm323

bm323

ps one last point, from the above, you are probably correct in your interpretation that the 03' E46 M3 CSL is more stable, sportier and handles better (not faster, as we are dealing with your interpretation of data) than the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit. You are maintaining your interpretation of raw data that any car positioned higher in laptimes is more stable, sportier and handles better. You have pointed out the underwhelming performance of the 05' 911 997 Carrera S Special Kit http://www.fastestla...a_S_381_PS.html compared to the 03' E46 M3 CSL http://www.fastestla...5753fa2d14.html but not reponded as regards the other cars listed below (which specs are listed by clicking on the car below, which I invite you to )

Shebs

My approach concerning the G forces and slalom speeds and cornering stability is completely legitimate. Since both cars were equipped with the same tyre tread width and suspension packages, the difference in the engines will be of minimal effect (although both cars were extremely close in terms acceleration up to 180 km/h, which even helps in normalizing the test reaults). The engine weight puts the F10 at and advantage due to the lower weight at the nose and the better front/rear weight distribution since the diesel engine block is made of cast iron and is heavier than the petrol engine block that is made of aluminum and magnesium alloy.

The Sport Auto Test was done by the same driver within two months period. His name is Horst von Saurma. His lap times on the Nurburgring are among the most famous ones in the world Nürburgring lap times. His Hockenheim lap times are among the most widely used lap times in the world for reference.

But again you will not be convinced by the Wikipedia articles. You will come back arguing that Wikipedia can be written by anyone, and revised by illegitimate people, and that the information is Wikipedia is not accurate, or even the information across the whole internet is not very accurate.

And because of this attitude, I have a very good idea for you.

Please start writing letters to all the magazines and TV shows in the world telling them to start collecting all the old cars they already tested and test them all on one day, with the same driver, with the same tyres type, and the same tyres size, and exactly the same amount of fuel, and same options, and the same sun exposure, and exactly the same track temperature. Also all the cars should have the same kilometers on the dial, so that we ensure that they have same wear and tear on the motor. Or they should even put all the cars on the dyno to make sure that they match the manufacturers power and torque claims.

I even have a better idea.

Please start writing letters to Top Gear (Show and Magazine), AutoCar, Evo Magazine, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, Autozeitung, Sport Auto, and even to the adminstrators of Nordschleife, and tell them that you demand that they immeadiately stop doing the track tests since all the lap times they recorded are erroneous according to your recently discovered theory . I mean why should you accept all of these magazines trying to mislead the poor public with their erroneous data that was compiled across a very long duration of years .

In the meantime, I will enjoy the support of the rest of the members of this great forum.

bm323

Looks like you are the one who is not able to back off from your initial interpretation of data you have not responded to the challenge raised in posts #37 and #38.

And by the way, for one who attributes and elevates his personal interpretation of data to leading automags, pls do not assume you know me and be presumptuous of how I would debate. Since you say that the driver is the same, I accept but your far inadequate and immature response still begs for much