Car and Driver Tests of F10 535i and E60 535i Compared
10-10-2010, 09:12 AM
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Again, and as you did in an ealier thread, you are referring to a straight line comparison done by Motortrend which does not show any tires effect, since tires effect is primary on handling. In acceleration, tires grip will matter on low speeds were tires traction would be overcomed by the engine's torque.
The case in Motortrend test is that the E60 is still faster to 60 mph, i.e. where tires matter. This agrees with Edmunds and C&D results. The reason why the F10 is faster above 60 mph in Motortrend remains a question not answered. But as we have now 2 tests (Edmunds and C&D) stating that the E60 is faster while one test (Motortrend) claims that the E60 is faster to 60 mph then the F10 is faster above that speed. So 2 tests against 1 should be enough to state that the E60 535i is faster in a straight line than the F10 535i.
The only two tests comparing both 535i in terms of handling are Edminds Inside Line and C&D. Both show the E60 superioty in terms on handling and both tests results agree on the same conclusion. This is also my own conclusion as I drove both cars. Show me a test that states that the F10 has better handling figures (skidpad, slalom, etc.) than an equivalent E60 if you want to prove the opposite.
The case in Motortrend test is that the E60 is still faster to 60 mph, i.e. where tires matter. This agrees with Edmunds and C&D results. The reason why the F10 is faster above 60 mph in Motortrend remains a question not answered. But as we have now 2 tests (Edmunds and C&D) stating that the E60 is faster while one test (Motortrend) claims that the E60 is faster to 60 mph then the F10 is faster above that speed. So 2 tests against 1 should be enough to state that the E60 535i is faster in a straight line than the F10 535i.
The only two tests comparing both 535i in terms of handling are Edminds Inside Line and C&D. Both show the E60 superioty in terms on handling and both tests results agree on the same conclusion. This is also my own conclusion as I drove both cars. Show me a test that states that the F10 has better handling figures (skidpad, slalom, etc.) than an equivalent E60 if you want to prove the opposite.
Tires, f;r
245/40R-18 93Y Bridgestone Potenza for the E60 535i
RE050A245/45R-18 96Y Dunlop SP SportMaxx GT for the F10 535i
Read more: http://www.motortren...l#ixzz11yF2zHCN
So the F10 with the worse tires were slower at first but achieved higher speeds at shorter times.
As for C & D review, you are seeking to compare the F10 and the E60, the former with the Goodyear excellence and the latter with the Bridgestone Potenza.
it appears to me you are relying on parts of reviews that are more favourable to the E60 and dismissing the rest.
Btw, iif I recall correctly, you mentioned that the F10 is not 50/50 weight distributed. Where did you read this?
What is the link for Insideline that compares both equivalent E60 and F10 535i? C & D doesn't.
10-10-2010, 09:44 AM
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First, Motortrend
Tires, f;r
245/40R-18 93Y Bridgestone Potenza for the E60 535i
RE050A245/45R-18 96Y Dunlop SP SportMaxx GT for the F10 535i
Read more: http://www.motortren...l#ixzz11yF2zHCN
So the F10 with the worse tires were slower at first but achieved higher speeds at shorter times.
Tires, f;r
245/40R-18 93Y Bridgestone Potenza for the E60 535i
RE050A245/45R-18 96Y Dunlop SP SportMaxx GT for the F10 535i
Read more: http://www.motortren...l#ixzz11yF2zHCN
So the F10 with the worse tires were slower at first but achieved higher speeds at shorter times.
It is actually not my problem that you do not know about tires, and I am tired of explaining everything, and I now have to explain tires categories. The Dunlop Sport Maxx GT is from the Max Performance Tires category. It is called Maxx
. It is from the same category as Bridgestone Potenza RE050A. So your statements above are wrong.That is what I explained in my earlier post but you did not understand it (read post #9 again). The tires in Motortrend were superior to those in C&D and Edmunds Inside Line as the Goodyear Excellence tires are from the Grand Touring tires category. Still in Motortrend the E60 was faster to 100 mph where tires grip matters.
As for C & D review, you are seeking to compare the F10 and the E60, the former with the Goodyear excellence and the latter with the Bridgestone Potenza.
it appears to me you are relying on parts of reviews that are more favourable to the E60 and dismissing the rest.
Btw, iif I recall correctly, you mentioned that the F10 is not 50/50 weight distributed. Where did you read this?
What is the link for Insideline that compares both equivalent E60 and F10 535i? C & D doesn't.
it appears to me you are relying on parts of reviews that are more favourable to the E60 and dismissing the rest.
Btw, iif I recall correctly, you mentioned that the F10 is not 50/50 weight distributed. Where did you read this?
What is the link for Insideline that compares both equivalent E60 and F10 535i? C & D doesn't.
Please provide one test that shows that the F10 is a better handler than a similar E60 if you want to prove the opposite.
I never said the F10 is not 50/50 weight distributed, this is a general statement that only an unexperienced guy would claim. Weight distribution depends on the engine in he car. I stated that the 535i is 52/48 F/R as tested in Edmunds Inside Line. Look at the bottom right of the page, Dimensions and Capacities. I never make a statement unless I have a proof to it as opposed to other people.
I already stated in my first post that the tires of the E60 in C&D and Edmunds were superioir to the F10's, but they would never account for the huge difference in slalom figures and skidpad figures. Please see the comparison below berween Grand Touring tires and Max Performace tires from Tireack.com. Both tests were done with 2003 330i Coupe.
Grand Touring tires (like the Goodyear Excellence which are not tested yet)
And Max Performace tires (like the Potenza RE050A and Dunlop Sport Maxx GT)
Do you see a difference between both tires categories in terms of Dry skidpad figures? The difference is not more than 1% to 2% for the same manufacturer.
Why is the difference so huge between the E60 and the F10 on the skidpad figures (6% in Edmunds and 3.5% in C&D E60 higher) while it is not actually only due to tires as you can see from the charts above? It is because the E60 is a better handler.
Go to tirerack.com and search for Grand Touring and Max Performace tires tests. You will see that the skidpad figures will not be different by more than 1% to 2%.
The E60 is better handler than the F10 from all the tests I read, and from my personal experience with both cars. Please provide a test that proves the opposite.
10-10-2010, 07:31 PM
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Again, and as you did in an ealier thread, you are referring to a straight line comparison done by Motortrend which does not show any tires effect, since tires effect is primary on handling. In acceleration, tires grip will matter on low speeds were tires traction would be overcomed by the engine's torque.
The case in Motortrend test is that the E60 is still faster to 60 mph, i.e. where tires matter. This agrees with Edmunds and C&D results. The reason why the F10 is faster above 60 mph in Motortrend remains a question not answered. But as we have now 2 tests (Edmunds and C&D) stating that the E60 is faster while one test (Motortrend) claims that the E60 is faster to 60 mph then the F10 is faster above that speed. So 2 tests against 1 should be enough to state that the E60 535i is faster in a straight line than the F10 535i.
The case in Motortrend test is that the E60 is still faster to 60 mph, i.e. where tires matter. This agrees with Edmunds and C&D results. The reason why the F10 is faster above 60 mph in Motortrend remains a question not answered. But as we have now 2 tests (Edmunds and C&D) stating that the E60 is faster while one test (Motortrend) claims that the E60 is faster to 60 mph then the F10 is faster above that speed. So 2 tests against 1 should be enough to state that the E60 535i is faster in a straight line than the F10 535i.
Dunlop SP SportMaxx GT results not in chart.
10-10-2010, 07:56 PM
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I didn't get your Insideline links, and they are probably http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...full-test.html
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...-bmw-535i.html
Check out the tires again , and you will know why the results for the E60 and F10 are not comparable.
As for C & D 2010 test, check out also the tires and how C & D seek to compare the cars with superior ones for the other 2 and the Goodyear excellence which you say are inferior, for the F10.
It is not my problem, that when you debate, you don't deal with the issue at hand, but jump to bias points in favour of the E60 eg https://5series.net/forums/topic/104...st__p__1251788
By the way, unless I got carried away
, did I say that the F10 handles better than the E60 when they have the identical engines? 
What disadvantage are you talking about?
It is actually not my problem that you do not know about tires, and I am tired of explaining everything, and I now have to explain tires categories. The Dunlop Sport Maxx GT is from the Max Performance Tires category. It is called Maxx. It is from the same category as Bridgestone Potenza RE050A. So your statements above are wrong.
That is what I explained in my earlier post but you did not understand it (read post #9 again). The tires in Motortrend were superior to those in C&D and Edmunds Inside Line as the Goodyear Excellence tires are from the Grand Touring tires category. Still in Motortrend the E60 was faster to 100 mph where tires grip matters.
The parts of the reviews that are favourable to the E60 would always be the handling which is the aspect I am concentrating on due to my personal preference as I explained earlier. I mentioned that the F10 is better in every other category in all my previous posts.
Please provide one test that shows that the F10 is a better handler than a similar E60 if you want to prove the opposite.
I never said the F10 is not 50/50 weight distributed, this is a general statement that only an unexperienced guy would claim. Weight distribution depends on the engine in he car. I stated that the 535i is 52/48 F/R as tested in Edmunds Inside Line. Look at the bottom right of the page, Dimensions and Capacities. I never make a statement unless I have a proof to it as opposed to other people. Yes, like when discussions were on the 535i and you wrongly assumed that it was not speed limited https://5series.net/forums/topic/104...st__p__1251788 and start giving all sorts of equations which were not applicable.
I already stated in my first post that the tires of the E60 in C&D and Edmunds were superioir to the F10's, but they would never account for the huge difference in slalom figures and skidpad figures. Please see the comparison below berween Grand Touring tires and Max Performace tires from Tireack.com. Both tests were done with 2003 330i Coupe. This is your guess. Do the tires and your guess explain Motortrend's F10 535i achieving higher speeds at shorter times? Also quote "Our quarter-mile time of 14.1 seconds was identical, and in fact the trap speed was up from 100.6 mph to 101.0. The 60-mph-dash was a tenth slower at 5.6 seconds, while times to the higher speeds were improved (21.6 seconds to 120 mph beats the twin-turbo featherweight by six-tenths). That's impressive, especially if the fuel economy ends up equal or better.
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_1001_2011_bmw_535i_test/suspension_and_engine.html#ixzz1217Vqr4i
Grand Touring tires (like the Goodyear Excellence which are not tested yet)
And Max Performace tires (like the Potenza RE050A and Dunlop Sport Maxx GT)
Do you see a difference between both tires categories in terms of Dry skidpad figures? The difference is not more than 1% to 2% for the same manufacturer.
Why is the difference so huge between the E60 and the F10 on the skidpad figures (6% in Edmunds and 3.5% in C&D E60 higher) while it is not actually only due to tires as you can see from the charts above? It is because the E60 is a better handler.
Go to tirerack.com and search for Grand Touring and Max Performace tires tests. You will see that the skidpad figures will not be different by more than 1% to 2%.
The E60 is better handler than the F10 from all the tests I read, and from my personal experience with both cars. Please provide a test that proves the opposite. If reviews are what you are seeking, here http://f10.5post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6573653&postcount=1
It is actually not my problem that you do not know about tires, and I am tired of explaining everything, and I now have to explain tires categories. The Dunlop Sport Maxx GT is from the Max Performance Tires category. It is called Maxx
. It is from the same category as Bridgestone Potenza RE050A. So your statements above are wrong.That is what I explained in my earlier post but you did not understand it (read post #9 again). The tires in Motortrend were superior to those in C&D and Edmunds Inside Line as the Goodyear Excellence tires are from the Grand Touring tires category. Still in Motortrend the E60 was faster to 100 mph where tires grip matters.
The parts of the reviews that are favourable to the E60 would always be the handling which is the aspect I am concentrating on due to my personal preference as I explained earlier. I mentioned that the F10 is better in every other category in all my previous posts.
Please provide one test that shows that the F10 is a better handler than a similar E60 if you want to prove the opposite.
I never said the F10 is not 50/50 weight distributed, this is a general statement that only an unexperienced guy would claim. Weight distribution depends on the engine in he car. I stated that the 535i is 52/48 F/R as tested in Edmunds Inside Line. Look at the bottom right of the page, Dimensions and Capacities. I never make a statement unless I have a proof to it as opposed to other people. Yes, like when discussions were on the 535i and you wrongly assumed that it was not speed limited https://5series.net/forums/topic/104...st__p__1251788 and start giving all sorts of equations which were not applicable.
I already stated in my first post that the tires of the E60 in C&D and Edmunds were superioir to the F10's, but they would never account for the huge difference in slalom figures and skidpad figures. Please see the comparison below berween Grand Touring tires and Max Performace tires from Tireack.com. Both tests were done with 2003 330i Coupe. This is your guess. Do the tires and your guess explain Motortrend's F10 535i achieving higher speeds at shorter times? Also quote "Our quarter-mile time of 14.1 seconds was identical, and in fact the trap speed was up from 100.6 mph to 101.0. The 60-mph-dash was a tenth slower at 5.6 seconds, while times to the higher speeds were improved (21.6 seconds to 120 mph beats the twin-turbo featherweight by six-tenths). That's impressive, especially if the fuel economy ends up equal or better.
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_1001_2011_bmw_535i_test/suspension_and_engine.html#ixzz1217Vqr4i
Grand Touring tires (like the Goodyear Excellence which are not tested yet)
And Max Performace tires (like the Potenza RE050A and Dunlop Sport Maxx GT)
Do you see a difference between both tires categories in terms of Dry skidpad figures? The difference is not more than 1% to 2% for the same manufacturer.
Why is the difference so huge between the E60 and the F10 on the skidpad figures (6% in Edmunds and 3.5% in C&D E60 higher) while it is not actually only due to tires as you can see from the charts above? It is because the E60 is a better handler.
Go to tirerack.com and search for Grand Touring and Max Performace tires tests. You will see that the skidpad figures will not be different by more than 1% to 2%.
The E60 is better handler than the F10 from all the tests I read, and from my personal experience with both cars. Please provide a test that proves the opposite. If reviews are what you are seeking, here http://f10.5post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6573653&postcount=1
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...-bmw-535i.html
Check out the tires again , and you will know why the results for the E60 and F10 are not comparable.
As for C & D 2010 test, check out also the tires and how C & D seek to compare the cars with superior ones for the other 2 and the Goodyear excellence which you say are inferior, for the F10.
It is not my problem, that when you debate, you don't deal with the issue at hand, but jump to bias points in favour of the E60 eg https://5series.net/forums/topic/104...st__p__1251788
By the way, unless I got carried away
, did I say that the F10 handles better than the E60 when they have the identical engines?
10-12-2010, 03:40 AM
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The reason behind the Motortrend F10 535i being faster at higher speeds reamin a mystery to me. However, due to the other two test (Edmunds and C&D) stating that the E60 is faster above 60 mph, I tend to believe that this is the truth.
Dunlop Sport Maxx GT are not tested yet on any site unfortunately as I mentioned in post #12. Once I attain a test for these tires I will post it.
10-12-2010, 03:57 AM
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I didn't get your Insideline links, and they are probably http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...full-test.html
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...-bmw-535i.html
Check out the tires again , and you will know why the results for the E60 and F10 are not comparable.
As for C & D 2010 test, check out also the tires and how C & D seek to compare the cars with superior ones for the other 2 and the Goodyear excellence which you say are inferior, for the F10.
It is not my problem, that when you debate, you don't deal with the issue at hand, but jump to bias points in favour of the E60 eg https://5series.net/forums/topic/104...st__p__1251788
I didn't get your Insideline links, and they are probably http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...full-test.html
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...-bmw-535i.html
Check out the tires again , and you will know why the results for the E60 and F10 are not comparable.
As for C & D 2010 test, check out also the tires and how C & D seek to compare the cars with superior ones for the other 2 and the Goodyear excellence which you say are inferior, for the F10.
It is not my problem, that when you debate, you don't deal with the issue at hand, but jump to bias points in favour of the E60 eg https://5series.net/forums/topic/104...st__p__1251788
(I underline the phrases which are actually links to make them look more professional, I do not like to include www.--- in my posts).BMW chose the Goodyear Excellence in their F10 and chose the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A for their E60. BMW are the ones who should be addressed regarding their new direction that appears to even affect their tires selection. In Egypt I could not get the option of changing the Goodyear Excellence tires from new, and it will be the same in many parts of the world including Singapore. Even if the tires are replaced with better ones at your own cost after buying the car, I do not think that it will eleminate the huge skidpad and slalom superiority of the E60 (6% and 3.5% in both tests).
Again, these bias points you are referring to are the most important points to me. Handling at the limit (including slalom speeds, skidpad figuers, steering feel, etc.) is my first priority. Some other people priorities are safety, comfort, luxury and biggger LCD screens, in which the F10 excels as I mentioned in all my previous posts.
, then we are in agreement at least about one fact .
10-12-2010, 07:29 AM
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Judging cars based on their specifications and times is, quite simply, a game for fools and idiots. Buying or judging a car solely on its specifications is akin to buying a house based solely on its square footage, and equally idiotic.
The numbers tell you absolutely nothing about feel, emotional connection to the vehicle, your pride of ownership, the quality of materials and construction, your perspective on the car's design, and ultimately whether the car has soul and passion.
Either you like a car, or you don't, and whether a car is "better" can only ever be a subjective determination. Circular arguments about numbers are ultimately pointless and aren't going to change anyone's opinion.
The numbers tell you absolutely nothing about feel, emotional connection to the vehicle, your pride of ownership, the quality of materials and construction, your perspective on the car's design, and ultimately whether the car has soul and passion.
Either you like a car, or you don't, and whether a car is "better" can only ever be a subjective determination. Circular arguments about numbers are ultimately pointless and aren't going to change anyone's opinion.
10-12-2010, 08:10 AM
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Again, these bias points you are referring to are the most important points to me. Handling at the limit (including slalom speeds, skidpad figuers, steering feel, etc.) is my first priority. Some other people priorities are safety, comfort, luxury and biggger LCD screens, in which the F10 excels as I mentioned in all my previous posts.
If you didn't, and if you are not intending to in the future, then we are in agreement at least about one fact .
If you didn't, and if you are not intending to in the future
, then we are in agreement at least about one fact . bias in the sense that the debate was over one issue, but it was skipped over and equations were pointed out which had no relevance to the issue at hand.I didn't because I have not driven the E60 and am not able to comment on which car is superior in handling. I dislike the looks of the E60 and it was not in my consideration. I would not have bought my F10 if not for my wife wanting a bigger car, and also cos of our 2 growing kids. It was between the F01 and F10, and I managed to convince my wife to get the F10
If handling was the overriding consideration, I would probably have waited to check out the F30.
10-12-2010, 08:14 AM
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but I would say not so idiotic in the sense that it's good to have some "objective" understanding, but even then such numbers are affected by different drivers, tires etc that it's just a very rough gauge of the "objective" aspects.
10-13-2010, 12:33 AM
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Let me be clearer then bias in the sense that the debate was over one issue, but it was skipped over and equations were pointed out which had no relevance to the issue at hand.
I didn't because I have not driven the E60 and am not able to comment on which car is superior in handling. I dislike the looks of the E60 and it was not in my consideration. I would not have bought my F10 if not for my wife wanting a bigger car, and also cos of our 2 growing kids. It was between the F01 and F10, and I managed to convince my wife to get the F10 If handling was the overriding consideration, I would probably have waited to check out the F30.
bias in the sense that the debate was over one issue, but it was skipped over and equations were pointed out which had no relevance to the issue at hand.I didn't because I have not driven the E60 and am not able to comment on which car is superior in handling. I dislike the looks of the E60 and it was not in my consideration. I would not have bought my F10 if not for my wife wanting a bigger car, and also cos of our 2 growing kids. It was between the F01 and F10, and I managed to convince my wife to get the F10
If handling was the overriding consideration, I would probably have waited to check out the F30.The intent of the equations was to show the effect of Cd (coefficient of drag) and A (frontal surface area) on the top speed. I was trying to numerically show that while other companies like MB are getting better Cds with their new design, BMW is going backwards on this aspect and this has its effects on measurable performance, which is acceleration close to top speeds. Nothing more, nothing less
.I hope you are enjoying your F10 and I am sure it is a great ride. I visited Singapore in April 2009, stayed in Hilton Orchard Road, and realised that most of the E60s there were 523i due to tax issues, just like in my country.
The 523i here in Egypt has the N52 2.5L engine (204 hp and 250 Nm, 0-100 kph 8.5 s). I am sure it is the same engine in Singapore due to sulfur containing fuel available in both countries which eleminates the use of 523i N53 3.0 direct injection engines already used in Europe.
I have tried the F10 523i myself as I stated before, and it felt much faster than I expected, especially due to the 8 speed transmission quick shifts. It was fast enough to keep up with my friend's X3 3.0si (0-100 kph 7.5 s) up to 120 kph then take over the X3 easily. It was also fast enough to keep up with another friend's MB C300 (0-100 kph 7.2s) with an extra 90 kg passenger on board the MB up to 160 km/h.
An advice on how the 2.5L engine performs would be appreciated as it would help with my decision to buy a new car
.