Upsolute Chiptuning
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Of the now four Chip tuners for the 4.4L engine Wetterauer seems to have tuned for the most torque of them all. All the HPs seem to be within 360 HP +/- 3HP. But torque ranges from a low of 460 to a high of 495Nm. Quite a spread compared to HP. Wetterauer claims they tune for max torque by intent. They also offer up to 3 year extended warranty (at a cost of about $99 a year). For now they seem the most difficult to get done in the US as they do not yet have an ECU programmer in the US. Chip has to be removed and sent to Germany right now.
Other than the DMS Chip tune I do not know of a single other forum experience with the 4.4L engine chipping. Anyone now of any others or how to find more "real life" experiences? This excludes alex.br's piggyback module which I have excluded for purposes of this thread.
Other than the DMS Chip tune I do not know of a single other forum experience with the 4.4L engine chipping. Anyone now of any others or how to find more "real life" experiences? This excludes alex.br's piggyback module which I have excluded for purposes of this thread.
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Originally Posted by heezy545i' date='Sep 29 2005, 05:56 AM
Like it has been said, dinan covers you through their own warranty.?
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Originally Posted by soc_fans' date='Sep 29 2005, 07:02 AM
As far as i know, the chip that i did will not void my warranty. It is just an ECU reprogramming. BMW will not detect or know that you have done an ECU reprogramming to your car. I hope i am right..? <_<
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But it does void the warranty and it is detectable! If they are really looking for it, they see it! There is no stealth way of doing it!
Perfect example for the BS they keep telling everybody is: "it is not detectable"... If it doesn't void the warranty... why is it so important that it is not detectable? Why do they tell you?... Just because it voids the warranty!
Originally Posted by EuroCarFan' date='Sep 29 2005, 04:55 PM
Federal law protects consumers against dealers who attempt to void warranty for fitting aftermarket equipment or accessories.
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Originally Posted by swajames' date='Sep 29 2005, 05:02 PM
On a related note, DMS just emailed me again re the 545 remap and reconfirmed that the remap was undectable by BMW.
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If you bring your car to your dealer and he checks the car, he can see EVERYTHING! How often you used which device/gadget, how often you started the engine, simply EVERYTHING!!!
Also they can - if they want - see if the chip is still originall or not!
Trust me. I know it!
Originally Posted by donv' date='Sep 29 2005, 05:22 PM
Exactly--which means that BMW is responsible for fixing anything that cannot be shown to be the fault of an aftermarket part including a Dinan part.
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They have chosen to make the engine with this very specific HP, Nm, etc... for a good reason. If you mod the engine because it can be done and you want it... Then you are risking damage, and BMW is not responsible anymore. You know, sometimes even regular standard BMW non-modified/non-chipped engines brake... They make the engine with those specs just to have it on the safe side. Yes, it can do more and probably without damage, but if you mod the engine, they can find out, and it definately voids the warranty. They can show proof that your mod was the reason for the engine failure.
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Originally Posted by cobradav' date='Sep 29 2005, 08:50 PM
Of the now four Chip tuners for the 4.4L engine Wetterauer seems to have tuned for the most torque of them all.? All the HPs seem to be within 360 HP +/- 3HP.? But torque ranges from a low of 460 to a high of 495Nm.? Quite a spread compared to HP.? Wetterauer claims they tune for max torque by intent.? They also offer up to 3 year extended warranty (at a cost of about $99 a year).? For now they seem the most difficult to get done in the US as they do not yet have an ECU programmer in the US.? Chip has to be removed and sent to Germany right now.
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Have you called their US office? I thought I remember seeing a list of US partners...
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Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Sep 29 2005, 02:59 PM
[quote name='cobradav' date='Sep 29 2005, 08:50 PM']Of the now four Chip tuners for the 4.4L engine Wetterauer seems to have tuned for the most torque of them all.? All the HPs seem to be within 360 HP +/- 3HP.? But torque ranges from a low of 460 to a high of 495Nm.? Quite a spread compared to HP.? Wetterauer claims they tune for max torque by intent.? They also offer up to 3 year extended warranty (at a cost of about $99 a year).? For now they seem the most difficult to get done in the US as they do not yet have an ECU programmer in the US.? Chip has to be removed and sent to Germany right now.
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Have you called their US office? I thought I remember seeing a list of US partners...
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[/quote]Yes email and voice. They keep extending the date that their Programming device (and possibly trained engineer/technician) will be available in the U.S. I have traffic from their marketing/sales folks and also spoke to technical folks on the logistics end of it, were to be done at one of their authorized dealers. Specifically for the 4.4L engine it had to shipped to 1) the U.S programmer or 2) the German home facility. In fact they mentioned the Fed Ex process and I had no problem with that part. It was getting the ECU package out & in since there are no tuning shops close by and really wanted a Wetterauer sponsored house to do it. It looked to be a DIY and I am not comfortable with that what with all the warranty issues to start with. I would have to battle Wetterauer as well as BMW should something go wrong under MY operation
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Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Sep 29 2005, 01:55 PM
[quote name='donv' date='Sep 29 2005, 05:22 PM']Exactly--which means that BMW is responsible for fixing anything that cannot be shown to be the fault of an aftermarket part including a Dinan part.
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You appear to be saying the BMW is likely to cheat its customers--because the fact is that many things can go wrong downstream of an aftermarket part that is not the fault of the part. I agree that auto manufacturers in general, and apparently BMW specifically, will try to get out of paying for legitimate claims by claiming an aftermarket part was responsible for the problem. Ergo, as mentioned, I do my best to avoid such situations by having only Dinan parts, except for exhausts, installed by only my Dinan certified dealer. My dealer says there won't be a warranty problem with a Dinan installed part. Of course, the dealer may be choosing to cheat BMW because it knows that BMW will cheat either the customer or Dinan.
They have chosen to make the engine with this very specific HP, Nm, etc... for a good reason. If you mod the engine because it can be done and you want it... Then you are risking damage, and BMW is not responsible anymore. You know, sometimes even regular standard BMW non-modified/non-chipped engines brake... They make the engine with those specs just to have it on the safe side. Yes, it can do more and probably without damage, but if you mod the engine, they can find out, and it definately voids the warranty. They can show proof that your mod was the reason for the engine failure.
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No, risking damage by installing an after-market part doesn't void the warranty in the US--unless you are arguing that it is void by default since few will be able to challenge BMW on its sometimes illegitimate claims concering problems caused by aftermarket parts. BMW can't acutally void any part of a warranty in the US simply because an aftermarket part is installed. But, I agree it can void specific parts of a warranty if it has legitimate reason to believe that an after-market part is the reason for the problem.
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[/quote]
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Originally Posted by donv' date='Sep 29 2005, 12:58 PM
[quote name='Iceman' date='Sep 29 2005, 01:55 PM'][quote name='donv' date='Sep 29 2005, 05:22 PM']Exactly--which means that BMW is responsible for fixing anything that cannot be shown to be the fault of an aftermarket part including a Dinan part.
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You appear to be saying the BMW is likely to cheat its customers--because the fact is that many things can go wrong downstream of an aftermarket part that is not the fault of the part. I agree that auto manufacturers in general, and apparently BMW specifically, will try to get out of paying for legitimate claims by claiming an aftermarket part was responsible for the problem. Ergo, as mentioned, I do my best to avoid such situations by having only Dinan parts, except for exhausts, installed by only my Dinan certified dealer. My dealer says there won't be a warranty problem with a Dinan installed part. Of course, the dealer may be choosing to cheat BMW because it knows that BMW will cheat either the customer or Dinan.
They have chosen to make the engine with this very specific HP, Nm, etc... for a good reason. If you mod the engine because it can be done and you want it... Then you are risking damage, and BMW is not responsible anymore. You know, sometimes even regular standard BMW non-modified/non-chipped engines brake... They make the engine with those specs just to have it on the safe side. Yes, it can do more and probably without damage, but if you mod the engine, they can find out, and it definately voids the warranty. They can show proof that your mod was the reason for the engine failure.
![Wink](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/wink.gif)
No, risking damage doesn't void the warranty in the US--unless you are arguing that it is void by default since few will be able to challenge BMW on its apparently illegitimate claims concering problems caused by aftermarket parts. BMW can't acutally void any part of a warranty in the US simply because an aftermarket part is installed. But, I agree it can void specific parts of a warranty if it has legitimate reason to believe that an after-market part is the reason for the problem.
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[/quote]All this warranty-voiding talk is killing my horsepower appetite....
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Originally Posted by cobradav' date='Sep 29 2005, 11:50 AM
Of the now four Chip tuners for the 4.4L engine Wetterauer seems to have tuned for the most torque of them all.? All the HPs seem to be within 360 HP +/- 3HP.? But torque ranges from a low of 460 to a high of 495Nm.? Quite a spread compared to HP.? Wetterauer claims they tune for max torque by intent.? They also offer up to 3 year extended warranty (at a cost of about $99 a year).? For now they seem the most difficult to get done in the US as they do not yet have an ECU programmer in the US.? Chip has to be removed and sent to Germany right now.
Other than the DMS Chip tune I do not know of a single other forum experience with the 4.4L engine chipping.? Anyone now of any others or how to find more "real life" experiences?? This excludes alex.br's piggyback module which I have excluded for purposes of this thread.
Other than the DMS Chip tune I do not know of a single other forum experience with the 4.4L engine chipping.? Anyone now of any others or how to find more "real life" experiences?? This excludes alex.br's piggyback module which I have excluded for purposes of this thread.
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In the US, a manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim simply because a non-OEM part has been added to a car, unless they can prove that the mod caused the OEM part to fail. For example, if you upgrade your brakes, and later there's a problem with your engine, the two are unrelated and the manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim on the engine failure.
Having said that, anybody who chips their car (or adds a supercharger, new throttle body, etc.) should do it with their eyes wide open that, if there's a problem with your engine (or potentially any part of the drive train), they run the risk of being denied a warranty claim, since the mod (which increases engine power, and therefore stress on the entire drive train) could be claimed by the manufacturer to have caused the problem.
The warranty section of the Dinan website ( http://dinancars.com/filepreview.asp?pdf=d...anty_Update.pdf ) takes away with one hand what they gave with the other hand.
First they say:
The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer?s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component, using new or authorized remanufactured parts.
Then they say:
The installation of Dinan Performance Products and systems may affect the vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty. The vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty may not apply to modifications to a vehicle or the installation of any performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle which substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications or which result in damage to other original vehicle manufacturer?s components.
So, buyer beware. Not necessarily a reason to not mod your car, but do it with your eyes wide open, recognizing that any chipping can be detected (and will likely be written over by CIP updates), and any mods that can be claimed to cause damage to OEM parts are risking voiding the manufacturers warranty on the affected parts--but not the entire warranty--and then you get in the middle of a finger pointing contest between the car manufacturer and tuning company...and rest assured they all have lawyers that know how to handle these situations.
Having said that, anybody who chips their car (or adds a supercharger, new throttle body, etc.) should do it with their eyes wide open that, if there's a problem with your engine (or potentially any part of the drive train), they run the risk of being denied a warranty claim, since the mod (which increases engine power, and therefore stress on the entire drive train) could be claimed by the manufacturer to have caused the problem.
The warranty section of the Dinan website ( http://dinancars.com/filepreview.asp?pdf=d...anty_Update.pdf ) takes away with one hand what they gave with the other hand.
First they say:
The Authorized Dinan Dealer will, without charge for parts or labor, repair or replace the defective Dinan component(s), as well as any original vehicle manufacturer?s component(s) that may have been directly affected by a Dinan component, using new or authorized remanufactured parts.
Then they say:
The installation of Dinan Performance Products and systems may affect the vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty. The vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty may not apply to modifications to a vehicle or the installation of any performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle which substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications or which result in damage to other original vehicle manufacturer?s components.
So, buyer beware. Not necessarily a reason to not mod your car, but do it with your eyes wide open, recognizing that any chipping can be detected (and will likely be written over by CIP updates), and any mods that can be claimed to cause damage to OEM parts are risking voiding the manufacturers warranty on the affected parts--but not the entire warranty--and then you get in the middle of a finger pointing contest between the car manufacturer and tuning company...and rest assured they all have lawyers that know how to handle these situations.
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Originally Posted by stream' date='Sep 29 2005, 03:48 PM
The warranty section of the Dinan website (? http://dinancars.com/filepreview.asp?pdf=d...anty_Update.pdf
Then they say:
The installation of Dinan Performance Products and systems may affect the vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty. The vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty may not apply to modifications to a vehicle or the installation of any performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle which substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications or which result in damage to other original vehicle manufacturer?s components.
I questioned Dinan about the above statements. I believe they are related to the situations Iceman is thinking of. One distinct case they are talking about is where an installed part can be shown to have caused a problem. Here, the warranty on the damaged part(s) clearly can be voided in the US.
The other distinct case is the one in which "modifications to a vehicle or the installation of ... performance accessories or components ...? substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications [of a vehicle]." Dinan holds, for the most part, that they don't manufacture parts that would do such things. However, this issue is, of course, moot. I am inclined to think pretty much anything except substantive changes such as internal engine mods, tubo/superchargers, and exhaust changes beyond the muffler would be OK (headers might be OK, but why do them since the resonators probably are more restrictive than the existing headers). But, still, the point is debateable.
Regardless, US law would not allow voiding a warranty on specific parts unless their damage could be shown to have been caused by a mod(s). In such cases, the extent of the modifications would affect the likelihood that BMW could argue successfully that a part was damaged as a consequence of a mod(s).
Dinan's ultimate response to my questioning was that no Dinan customer has ever had to pay for damage cause by a Dinan part installed by a certified Dinan shop--where the part is designed for the car upon which the damage occurs. Is this statement true? I don' know.
And, it is clear that BMW could claim that modifications to a vehicle or the installation of ... performance accessories or components ...? [always] substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications [of a vehicle]. But, at some point such claims become absurd (e.g., changed sparkplug wires), and BMW would be culpable. Still, who is going to take them on? So, in such cases, hopefully it is Dinan to the rescue.
So, buyer beware.? Not necessarily a reason to not mod your car, but do it with your eyes wide open, recognizing that any chipping can be detected (and will likely be written over by CIP updates), and any mods that can be claimed to cause damage to OEM parts are risking voiding the manufacturers warranty on the affected parts--but not the entire warranty--and then you get in the middle of a finger pointing contest between the car manufacturer and tuning company...and rest assured they all have lawyers that know how to handle these situations.
I agree completely. If I ever have Dinan chipping done by my certifed Dinan dealer, then my presumption is that the dealer would rechip if necessary after a CIP update. But, who knows. Chipping, I think, places one in a not perfect position. I have about decided not to chip--just go with, in addition to what I have done, a Dinan intake and MAF--if and when they appear. And, certainly I won't do anything my dealer balks at.
Then they say:
The installation of Dinan Performance Products and systems may affect the vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty. The vehicle manufacturer?s new car limited warranty may not apply to modifications to a vehicle or the installation of any performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle which substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications or which result in damage to other original vehicle manufacturer?s components.
I questioned Dinan about the above statements. I believe they are related to the situations Iceman is thinking of. One distinct case they are talking about is where an installed part can be shown to have caused a problem. Here, the warranty on the damaged part(s) clearly can be voided in the US.
The other distinct case is the one in which "modifications to a vehicle or the installation of ... performance accessories or components ...? substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications [of a vehicle]." Dinan holds, for the most part, that they don't manufacture parts that would do such things. However, this issue is, of course, moot. I am inclined to think pretty much anything except substantive changes such as internal engine mods, tubo/superchargers, and exhaust changes beyond the muffler would be OK (headers might be OK, but why do them since the resonators probably are more restrictive than the existing headers). But, still, the point is debateable.
Regardless, US law would not allow voiding a warranty on specific parts unless their damage could be shown to have been caused by a mod(s). In such cases, the extent of the modifications would affect the likelihood that BMW could argue successfully that a part was damaged as a consequence of a mod(s).
Dinan's ultimate response to my questioning was that no Dinan customer has ever had to pay for damage cause by a Dinan part installed by a certified Dinan shop--where the part is designed for the car upon which the damage occurs. Is this statement true? I don' know.
And, it is clear that BMW could claim that modifications to a vehicle or the installation of ... performance accessories or components ...? [always] substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications [of a vehicle]. But, at some point such claims become absurd (e.g., changed sparkplug wires), and BMW would be culpable. Still, who is going to take them on? So, in such cases, hopefully it is Dinan to the rescue.
So, buyer beware.? Not necessarily a reason to not mod your car, but do it with your eyes wide open, recognizing that any chipping can be detected (and will likely be written over by CIP updates), and any mods that can be claimed to cause damage to OEM parts are risking voiding the manufacturers warranty on the affected parts--but not the entire warranty--and then you get in the middle of a finger pointing contest between the car manufacturer and tuning company...and rest assured they all have lawyers that know how to handle these situations.
I agree completely. If I ever have Dinan chipping done by my certifed Dinan dealer, then my presumption is that the dealer would rechip if necessary after a CIP update. But, who knows. Chipping, I think, places one in a not perfect position. I have about decided not to chip--just go with, in addition to what I have done, a Dinan intake and MAF--if and when they appear. And, certainly I won't do anything my dealer balks at.
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Originally Posted by cobradav' date='Sep 29 2005, 09:27 PM
I have dealt with VLSI chips my entire life but its a lot different between scrubbing a launch and MY $$
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Originally Posted by donv' date='Sep 29 2005, 09:58 PM
I agree it can void specific parts of a warranty if it has legitimate reason to believe that an after-market part is the reason for the problem.
BMW WILL prove that your aftermarket part is causing the trouble, trust me. They find a way to blame the part you've installed!
Originally Posted by stream' date='Sep 29 2005, 10:48 PM
In the US, a manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim simply because a non-OEM part has been added to a car, unless they can prove that the mod caused the OEM part to fail.?
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Originally Posted by stream' date='Sep 29 2005, 10:48 PM
For example, if you upgrade your brakes, and later there's a problem with your engine, the two are unrelated and the manufacturer cannot deny a warranty claim on the engine failure.
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Originally Posted by stream' date='Sep 29 2005, 10:48 PM
So, buyer beware.? Not necessarily a reason to not mod your car, but do it with your eyes wide open, recognizing that any chipping can be detected (and will likely be written over by CIP updates), and any mods that can be claimed to cause damage to OEM parts are risking voiding the manufacturers warranty on the affected parts--but not the entire warranty--and then you get in the middle of a finger pointing contest between the car manufacturer and tuning company...and rest assured they all have lawyers that know how to handle these situations.
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Everything CAN be detected, but only if they really search for it.
Sometimes you don't even have problems with claims when you expect problems to appear.
BTW: chip tuning will not be written over by new CIP's.