New Attempt to Assess Gains from 545i Mods:
01-06-2006, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by stream' post='220199' date='Jan 6 2006, 05:00 PM
So let me play devil's advocate.
OK, I'll be the angel's (my own) avocate. You old you. The gist of your devilish arguments, I think, are (1) bolt-on mods may not be economical and (2) one may not be able to feel, for example, the additional HP needed to produce a .3 sec. difference in the 1/4.
With respect to (1), the mods are worth it to me; they may not be worth it to some; and they may be worth it to some others. So, there is no way to judge mods to be economical, or not, in some universal sense. I explored the issue of the economy of my mods in the first "Mind Candy" thread linked in my sig. I liked what I came up with as cost per HP; some others might too; and some others might not. Check the thread out if you haven't.
Also, as I mentioned, mods offer aesthetic value to offset their costs in addition to performance value. And, a value I have not mentioned before is provided by mods--psychic value--the same sort of value that might make one perfer a 550i to a 545i--i.e., more power even if he or she can't feel it. With respect to (2), I believe that I can feel the addition of the HP needed to take about 2.5 to .3 sec. off the 1/4. But, that's not what is important to me. What is important to me is that I have taken time that is significant to me off all distances up to 1/4 mile (and more). I don't have to feel the differences to know and to appreciate that they are there and that I have accomplished what I set out to do. Indeed, I was hoping to get about a 2.5 to .3 improvement in the 1/4th at this point.
The issue of a supercharger is something of a strawman since I am talking about "typical" bolt on mods and have no intention of getting a supercharger (or the cheap bolt-one supercharger--nitrous). I would not get a supercharger even if Dinan offered one--which would take care of the warranty issue satisfactorily because of Dinan's outstanding after-market warranty. And, if one did all the things you mentioned above (especially vacuuming
), except for a supercharger, and did them well, then I am absolutely positive that most could feel the difference.Thank you for playing you old
.
Well, like I said above, I am happy with my increase whether or not I can feel it; some others might be too, and some others might not be. The value of mods subsists in the eye of the beholder and, thus, there is no way to say that mods are or not ecomomical absolutely. All we have to refer to is preferences.
And I'm not talking about whether somebody can feel a--theoretical--0.3 sec. difference in a 1/4 mile run. Honestly, you're talking about a calculated performance increase...when's the last you, or most of us, did a 1/4 mile?
I did not refer to feeling the additional HP specifically in a 1/4 mile run. What I said is that I can feel the extra HP needed to produce about a .3 sec improvement in the 1/4 mile. I feel the difference all the time-e.g., in 0 to 60 runs. And, the G-meters yield measured performance increases. In this regard, I have done a number of timed runs, for example, in the 1/8 mile. And, G-meters are known to be quite accurate.
And, the only calculated value that is important here is grogan's formula's value from my 1/4 mile. In this regard, his formula, which is based on empirical data, is minimally sensitive to changes in assumptions. This result occurs because it is based on known 1/8 mile times and speeds and the caibration of his G-meter with actual drag-strip times and speeds. His formula's value for my car appears conservative because I have average (3 best--using 1 new one) G-meter measured results of .28 faster to 60 than the average for the big-3 US auto mags (which implies a FEHP gain of 28).
Reminds me of one of my favorite sayings. Early in my career, the SVP of sales--a very colorful guy, full of one line sayings--used to say "figures lie, and liars figure" (naturally, I'm not calling anybody a liar) whenever we MBA types would produce exhaustive analyses whcih conflicted with something he was purporting from his "gut." I think we're agreeing to a large extent. Do all the mods you want...but at the end of the day it's really a question of whether it's worth it to you...from a "psychic value" to use your words. There's the aesthetic value (look at those cool exhaust tips, carbon fiber intake tubes...
), and a very marginal performance value, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Yes, that is what I have been saying all along--see my prior reply. It is preference. Some will be happy having done mods for the reasons mentioned above, and some wouldn't do them at all.
If people are really concerned about 1/4 mile times or street racing from stop light to stop light, they bought the wrong car in a 545i. Plus some of these mods (sport exhausts) actually cause a loss of low end torque in favor of (supposed) increased power at the high end of the RPM band.
People race all sorts of cars in their respective classes. One does not need to be in the fastest class to enjoy more HP and a faster car. Anyway, if I want to go a bit faster, then there's always the Z06. But, hey, I still think of sub 14 sec. cars as being pretty fast. And, it doesn't look or feel like I have a loss of low in torque on my 545i. Look at the comparison of my car to grogan's. He does not have an exhaust or throttle body, and our G-meters indicate consistently that I get to, for example, 60 mph before he does.
Here's my recommendation for a free mod, that will help your car feel like it's going faster--burn this 15 or 20 times to a CD, then play it in your car at full volume...
Increased Performance??
There is no denying that a great many are interested in the HP and performance of their 545i's and their 550's. There is too much discussion of these matters for them to not be important to many. But, all don't have to be interested.
Stream and Znod, you left out the weight of the driver and passenger if any. I'm 150 lbs on most days, so I have much weight savings over a 210 lb driver. Given that most American's are overweight, I think I have a "natural" advantage. 
As for superchargers, I will most likely get one after the warranty is out. But my current ignorance of supercharger is evidence of my current, perhaps poor, decision. I want a supercharger that works like or better than AMG - a supercharger that will only kick in when I need it, still gives me factory spec mpg, and never melt my engine. Am I asking for a turbocharger? I don't want to mod the exterior of my car except maybe for an M-aero kit. That why, it's a true "sleeper." 
As for superchargers, I will most likely get one after the warranty is out. But my current ignorance of supercharger is evidence of my current, perhaps poor, decision. I want a supercharger that works like or better than AMG - a supercharger that will only kick in when I need it, still gives me factory spec mpg, and never melt my engine. Am I asking for a turbocharger?
I don't want to mod the exterior of my car except maybe for an M-aero kit. That why, it's a true "sleeper." A supercharger might work out well on our cars as long as it is not over boosted and has an intercooler. It, of couse, would be better if our engines were designed with superchargers in mind from the outset--like Alpina does. I agree that your car would be a perfect stealther if you could get a well-functioning supercharger installation. I absolutely would not think about a turbo; you would be setting yourself up for many nightmares compared to a supercharger IMO.
And, I never leave out the driver's weight or how full my gas tank is in my thinking. Check out the first mind candy link in my sig. It's all there. I have natural lightness too--160 lbs.--one of my better mods.
01-06-2006, 10:04 PM
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A slight bump in hp or .3 sec or whatever might not be felt, but 0-60 along with 1/4 mile is more a function of traction and tires. If I were to line up with Znod on a highway run, I'm pretty sure the difference would be more noticeable. I agree though that most of these mods may be psychological, but some small things make a difference. When I switched out the runflats, the car immediately felt quicker. Either way, I'm not a fan of Dinan as I think they're severely priced for what you get.
Oh, if I was looking to mod a GT2, I'd go with RUF and get their nardo package.
Another thing, you guys are skinny. How tall are you guys? I'm 215 but 6'3. If I were able to gain another 10lbs of lean mass, I'd be happy.
Oh, if I was looking to mod a GT2, I'd go with RUF and get their nardo package.
Another thing, you guys are skinny. How tall are you guys? I'm 215 but 6'3. If I were able to gain another 10lbs of lean mass, I'd be happy.
01-06-2006, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by EuroCarFan' post='220337' date='Jan 7 2006, 12:44 AM
You will probably think I'm stupid but seriously, if they make performance parts for those cars, I would definitely buy them. Actually, aren't there several tuners out there that make performance parts for the GT2? Gemballa, Techart, Strosek? I don't think Ruf does though.
If I had that much money to buy those cars, I would probably be stupid enough to spend more money frivolously on modding them.
If I had that much money to buy those cars, I would probably be stupid enough to spend more money frivolously on modding them.
Two of my prior modded cars have been great. The 85 RX-7, which I still have (sub 14 sec. car), is a great little stealth car, and it cost almost nothing to mod. My recently sold 1994 RX-7 (sub 13 sec. car) also was great and cost very little to mod. By the time I modded the 1994, I had decided that I would do no more mods that I could not undo myslelf because my 1987 modded RX-7 Turbo II (low 13 sec. car)--had been a pain in the rear for many years and remained a pain until sold (yea!).
I have never modded the Z06. The guys on the Z06 forum are always asking what mods they should do first having just acquired their new "pre-owned" Z06's. I always tell them not to do any mods until they can do sub 12 sec. 1/4 mile runs either with or without drag radials. This feat is not easily accomplished, but has been done many times. I think I could do it, but will not put my car through that torture.
01-06-2006, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by heezy545i' post='220360' date='Jan 7 2006, 02:04 AM
A slight bump in hp or .3 sec or whatever might not be felt, but 0-60 along with 1/4 mile is more a function of traction and tires. If I were to line up with Znod on a highway run, I'm pretty sure the difference would be more noticeable. I agree though that most of these mods may be psychological, but some small things make a difference. When I switched out the runflats, the car immediately felt quicker. Either way, I'm not a fan of Dinan as I think they're severely priced for what you get.
Oh, if I was looking to mod a GT2, I'd go with RUF and get their nardo package.
Another thing, you guys are skinny. How tall are you guys? I'm 215 but 6'3. If I were able to gain another 10lbs of lean mass, I'd be happy.
Oh, if I was looking to mod a GT2, I'd go with RUF and get their nardo package.
Another thing, you guys are skinny. How tall are you guys? I'm 215 but 6'3. If I were able to gain another 10lbs of lean mass, I'd be happy.
And, 10 lbs. of lean mass is a good mod for a skinny guy.
I'm 5' 10" and 160 lbs.--which yields a good BMI index. But, I can't say for sure that my leaness mods are economical. I really think I can feel them though. On Dinan, well, all after-market parts are expensive. But, I am happy to pay Dinan prices because much of the price is for the Company's excellent warranty.
01-07-2006, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Znod' post='220391' date='Jan 7 2006, 12:06 AM
I don't get this statement: "A slight bump in hp or .3 sec or whatever might not be felt, but 0-60 along with 1/4 mile is more a function of traction and tires." In this regard, there are two issues. First, good traction gets one a good time. But, .3 sec. gained from mods. just makes things better--i.e., it does not go away just because one got good traction. And, I agree about tires. As mentioned/implied above, I am sure that I could do much better with drag radials--as I have done with my Z06.
And, 10 lbs. of lean mass is a good mod for a skinny guy. I'm 5' 10" and 160 lbs.--which yields a good BMI index. But, I can't say for sure that my leaness mods are economical. I really think I can feel them though. On Dinan, well, all after-market parts are expensive. But, I am happy to pay Dinan prices because much of the price is for the Company's excellent warranty.
And, 10 lbs. of lean mass is a good mod for a skinny guy.
I'm 5' 10" and 160 lbs.--which yields a good BMI index. But, I can't say for sure that my leaness mods are economical. I really think I can feel them though. On Dinan, well, all after-market parts are expensive. But, I am happy to pay Dinan prices because much of the price is for the Company's excellent warranty.Donv, did you ever race the Z06 against your sons' turbo or gt3 when they were stock?
01-07-2006, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Znod' post='220177' date='Jan 6 2006, 04:05 PM
Hi Friends:
There is much controversy over whether typical bolt on mods produce significant or noticeable gains on 545i's and other cars. Previously, I have attempted several mod assessments (go here--post #37--for the most recent one). The results looked good (i.e., up to a 44 flywheel equivalent horse power (FEHP) gain), but the assessment method was subject to much estimation error. Given grogan?s fabulous formula (go here--post #38), a new method and more accurate method of estimating gains from mods is available. I use this method below.
Given the HP values from my GT2 G-meter tests (go here--post #37 again), the implication is that my modest mods may not have not made enough of a difference for some (i.e., 8 to 15 FEHP depending on the weight of my car). Still, as indicated above, my most recent mod assessment implies that my mods do yield significant gains. In this regard, an independent calculation implies that my mods may have produced a FEHP increase of:
28.2 = 17.2 (lighter wheels/tires, spare tire removal, etc.) + 5 (Dinan throttle body) + 6 (B&B exhaust).
Conventionally, it is common to think of a 10 FHP equivalent increase on medium HP cars as translating into a .1 second improvement in the 1/4 mile time. So, we might equate my 28.2 value with about a .282 time reduction in ? mile time compared to a well-driven (WD) stock car. Now, given a WD stock car 1/4 mile of 13.7 (the average of the two fastest times recorded by the US auto mags for Steptronics?(13.7 + 13.7) / 2) and the most likely ? mile result for my Steptronic using grogan?s formula (13.467), then we might expect my car to win a quarter mile race, versus a WD stock car, by .233 = 13.7 ? 13.467. The .233 value implies an hp increase of 23.3 FEHP as compared to the 28.2 FEHP value calculated above. Still, the values are calculated independently and, thus, tend to support each other. So, the implication is that my mods have produced a 23.3 FEHP to 28.2 FEHP increase--which is not bad. And, remember that, given one's leanings, mods improve the aesthetics too--e.g., better looking wheels/tires and better sounding exhaust. Finally, I think that I can improve my prior test results--which will imply a greater FEHP gain from my mods.
Next, given the calculation from above,
28.2 = 17.2 (lighter wheels/tires, spare tire removal, etc.) + 5 (Dinan throttle body) + 6 (B&B exhaust),
regardless of which value we assume (23.3 or 28.2), the obvious estimate is that my Dinan throttle body and my B&B exhaust produce about 39 % (11 / 28.2) of my FEHP increase?or a savings of .11 in the ? mile. My conclusion is that if one is to get a significant and noticeable difference from a 545i (or a 550i), then he or she is likely to need to do a combination of mods including especially wheels and tires.
Note that my car and grogan?s car are very likely to run neck and neck in the quarter mile (see the results of grogan's virtual race between our cars--here--post #54). His car is stock. But, note that grogan has 16? wheels on his non-sport-package car (thus, negating much, or all, of my aftermarket wheel/tire advantage over stock via his wheels/tires and other possible weight savings). In addition, I have comfort seats--which are quite heavy. And, grogan?s car has a smaller tire diameter (and, thus, in effect, a lower rear-end ratio) than does my car. In sum, in terms of FEHP, grogan?s car very well may be the, or close to the, equivalent of mine. In sum, it would not be surprising for our cars to run neck and neck.
Finally, ignoring FEHP gains that might accrue to a CAI or programming, the very best gain probably would be produced using very light aftermarket wheels (I would use BBS wheels) of size 16? (non-sport package) or size 16? or 17? (sport package) along with drag radials. Neither Nitto nor BFG drag radials are available in the appropriate size for 18? wheels. So, if I had it to do over again, I probably would go with a 17,? rather than an 18,? wheel upgrade--thus, allowing me to go back and forth between "normal" tires and drag radials or to run drag radials all the time.
Happy additional "Mind-Candy" 545i mind candy to all interested.
There is much controversy over whether typical bolt on mods produce significant or noticeable gains on 545i's and other cars. Previously, I have attempted several mod assessments (go here--post #37--for the most recent one). The results looked good (i.e., up to a 44 flywheel equivalent horse power (FEHP) gain), but the assessment method was subject to much estimation error. Given grogan?s fabulous formula (go here--post #38), a new method and more accurate method of estimating gains from mods is available. I use this method below.
Given the HP values from my GT2 G-meter tests (go here--post #37 again), the implication is that my modest mods may not have not made enough of a difference for some (i.e., 8 to 15 FEHP depending on the weight of my car). Still, as indicated above, my most recent mod assessment implies that my mods do yield significant gains. In this regard, an independent calculation implies that my mods may have produced a FEHP increase of:
28.2 = 17.2 (lighter wheels/tires, spare tire removal, etc.) + 5 (Dinan throttle body) + 6 (B&B exhaust).
Conventionally, it is common to think of a 10 FHP equivalent increase on medium HP cars as translating into a .1 second improvement in the 1/4 mile time. So, we might equate my 28.2 value with about a .282 time reduction in ? mile time compared to a well-driven (WD) stock car. Now, given a WD stock car 1/4 mile of 13.7 (the average of the two fastest times recorded by the US auto mags for Steptronics?(13.7 + 13.7) / 2) and the most likely ? mile result for my Steptronic using grogan?s formula (13.467), then we might expect my car to win a quarter mile race, versus a WD stock car, by .233 = 13.7 ? 13.467. The .233 value implies an hp increase of 23.3 FEHP as compared to the 28.2 FEHP value calculated above. Still, the values are calculated independently and, thus, tend to support each other. So, the implication is that my mods have produced a 23.3 FEHP to 28.2 FEHP increase--which is not bad. And, remember that, given one's leanings, mods improve the aesthetics too--e.g., better looking wheels/tires and better sounding exhaust. Finally, I think that I can improve my prior test results--which will imply a greater FEHP gain from my mods.
Next, given the calculation from above,
28.2 = 17.2 (lighter wheels/tires, spare tire removal, etc.) + 5 (Dinan throttle body) + 6 (B&B exhaust),
regardless of which value we assume (23.3 or 28.2), the obvious estimate is that my Dinan throttle body and my B&B exhaust produce about 39 % (11 / 28.2) of my FEHP increase?or a savings of .11 in the ? mile. My conclusion is that if one is to get a significant and noticeable difference from a 545i (or a 550i), then he or she is likely to need to do a combination of mods including especially wheels and tires.
Note that my car and grogan?s car are very likely to run neck and neck in the quarter mile (see the results of grogan's virtual race between our cars--here--post #54). His car is stock. But, note that grogan has 16? wheels on his non-sport-package car (thus, negating much, or all, of my aftermarket wheel/tire advantage over stock via his wheels/tires and other possible weight savings). In addition, I have comfort seats--which are quite heavy. And, grogan?s car has a smaller tire diameter (and, thus, in effect, a lower rear-end ratio) than does my car. In sum, in terms of FEHP, grogan?s car very well may be the, or close to the, equivalent of mine. In sum, it would not be surprising for our cars to run neck and neck.
Finally, ignoring FEHP gains that might accrue to a CAI or programming, the very best gain probably would be produced using very light aftermarket wheels (I would use BBS wheels) of size 16? (non-sport package) or size 16? or 17? (sport package) along with drag radials. Neither Nitto nor BFG drag radials are available in the appropriate size for 18? wheels. So, if I had it to do over again, I probably would go with a 17,? rather than an 18,? wheel upgrade--thus, allowing me to go back and forth between "normal" tires and drag radials or to run drag radials all the time.
Happy additional "Mind-Candy" 545i mind candy to all interested.
By the way even though my car is not moded(no plans to do so in the future)I still have interest in improving my times,and besting times by the auto mags as well as other 545 owners.
01-07-2006, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by grogan545' post='220466' date='Jan 7 2006, 04:34 AM
It appears you are generating some interest in those of us who are interested in getting the "most" from our cars.Also those on the other side who think we are splitting hairs.It is doubtful either side will convince the other the error of their ways,but I find the discussions interesting.
01-07-2006, 06:00 PM
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I don't get this statement: "A slight bump in hp or .3 sec or whatever might not be felt, but 0-60 along with 1/4 mile is more a function of traction and tires." In this regard, there are two issues. First, good traction gets one a good time. But, .3 sec. gained from mods. just makes things better--i.e., it does not go away just because one got good traction. And, I agree about tires. As mentioned/implied above, I am sure that I could do much better with drag radials--as I have done with my Z06.
And, 10 lbs. of lean mass is a good mod for a skinny guy. I'm 5' 10" and 160 lbs.--which yields a good BMI index. But, I can't say for sure that my leaness mods are economical. I really think I can feel them though. On Dinan, well, all after-market parts are expensive. But, I am happy to pay Dinan prices because much of the price is for the Company's excellent warranty.
And, 10 lbs. of lean mass is a good mod for a skinny guy.
I'm 5' 10" and 160 lbs.--which yields a good BMI index. But, I can't say for sure that my leaness mods are economical. I really think I can feel them though. On Dinan, well, all after-market parts are expensive. But, I am happy to pay Dinan prices because much of the price is for the Company's excellent warranty.Donv, did you ever race the Z06 against your sons' turbo or gt3 when they were stock?
[/quote]I see. You might be right about the effect of the mods showing up more at speed, but I am not sure. And, note, as mentioned earlier, that the average of my three best 0 to 60 times implies a about a 28 FEHP increase over the cars tested by the big 3 US auto mags. No, I never raced my son in any of his cars--including his Z06--which he had right before the 640 hp car.
01-07-2006, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by grogan545' post='220466' date='Jan 7 2006, 07:34 AM
Thanks for the kind words about my formula.It appears you are generating some interest in those of us who are interested in getting the "most" from our cars.Also those on the other side who think we are splitting hairs.It is doubtful either side will convince the other the error of their ways,but I find the discussions interesting.
By the way even though my car is not moded(no plans to do so in the future)I still have interest in improving my times,and besting times by the auto mags as well as other 545 owners.
By the way even though my car is not moded(no plans to do so in the future)I still have interest in improving my times,and besting times by the auto mags as well as other 545 owners.
And, I want to emphasize a few points. First, as you indicate, it is important to note how close our times are without your car being modded. Second, it is important to keep in mind that the most important part of my mods (i.e., weight reduction) moves my car closer to the weight of your car since you don't have the sport package and comfort seats. In this regard, my car might or might not be lighter than yours. Third, both of our cars are lighter than the cars tested in the mags since all these cars had sport packages, etc. And, fourth your car is well broken in (i.e., my car has only about 6k miles). In sum, these points clarify two things. First, it should be no surprise that our cars would be so closely matched even though mine is modded. And, second, it should be no suprise that we can get better times that the big-three US auto mags.
Edit: Today grogan and I realized that we have never checked out each others octane ratings. He uses 93, and all that is available to me is 91. So, there is another factor that would tend to make our cars' performance values so similar. Also, we have discovered that our effective rear-end ratios are essentially the same--225 / 50-17" tires (grogan) versus 275 / 30-19" tires (me).
01-08-2006, 07:14 AM
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Thanks for the kind words about my formula.It appears you are generating some interest in those of us who are interested in getting the "most" from our cars.Also those on the other side who think we are splitting hairs.It is doubtful either side will convince the other the error of their ways,but I find the discussions interesting.
By the way even though my car is not moded(no plans to do so in the future)I still have interest in improving my times,and besting times by the auto mags as well as other 545 owners.
By the way even though my car is not moded(no plans to do so in the future)I still have interest in improving my times,and besting times by the auto mags as well as other 545 owners.
And, I want to emphasize a few points. First, as you indicate, it is important to note how close our times are without your car being modded. Second, it is important to keep in mind that the most important part of my mods (i.e., weight reduction) moves my car closer to the weight of your car since you don't have the sport package and comfort seats. In this regard, my car might or might not be lighter than yours. Third, because of your tire/wheel combo your car has slightly better straight-line gearing. Fourth, both of our cars are lighter than the cars tested in the mags since all these cars had sport packages, etc. In sum, these points clarify two things. First, it should be no surprise that our cars would be so closely matched even though mine is modded. And, second, it should be no suprise that we can get better times that the big-three US auto mags.
[/quote]
I agree with your statements and observations.We all have our own areas of interest and receive satisfaction sharing insights with others with the same interests.