Jlevi SW | Full Factory Tour of aFe - See How It's Made w/ Photos
07-25-2009, 09:09 AM
#111
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My Ride: 2004 545i
Production date: 02/04
Color: Black Sapphire Metallic
Trim: Anthracite
Options: Sport package with STEPTRONIC, Premium Sound, Rear Sunshade, Xenon
Originally Posted by EuroCarFan' post='954019' date='Jul 25 2009, 11:13 AM
Okay allow Grand Poobah to comment here.
Jon, you may not think this will hurt your business or maybe the members on this forum are insignificant to your enormous customer base from your multi-million dollar business but that just shows your poor judgement. I certainly do not wish your business to falter but the big mistake you made here is that you're alienating potential customers while trying to defend a supplier yet I don't believe you personally have any solid, personal proof as to the validity of their products....only pictures of a large and well run facility.
Look at Trinity Autosport. They were also selling AFE products but when real world results came out showing problems with the intakes, they didn't sit there and defend AFE, they sided with their customers and tried to rectify the situation. I think it was Trinity who also asked for the AFE executive to get on this board to address the concerns which demonstrated a fair and unbiased approach to dealing with the problems. That's far from what you're doing. You could have simply stated that you can get or do have proof that AFE products work and produced them instead of posting some of the argumentative and condescending remarks to members here.
I guess your purpose is to stand behind products that you sell and although that stance is admirable of a vendor in certain cases, it's not the case here. You lost me as a potential customer as well.
Jon, you may not think this will hurt your business or maybe the members on this forum are insignificant to your enormous customer base from your multi-million dollar business but that just shows your poor judgement. I certainly do not wish your business to falter but the big mistake you made here is that you're alienating potential customers while trying to defend a supplier yet I don't believe you personally have any solid, personal proof as to the validity of their products....only pictures of a large and well run facility.
Look at Trinity Autosport. They were also selling AFE products but when real world results came out showing problems with the intakes, they didn't sit there and defend AFE, they sided with their customers and tried to rectify the situation. I think it was Trinity who also asked for the AFE executive to get on this board to address the concerns which demonstrated a fair and unbiased approach to dealing with the problems. That's far from what you're doing. You could have simply stated that you can get or do have proof that AFE products work and produced them instead of posting some of the argumentative and condescending remarks to members here.
I guess your purpose is to stand behind products that you sell and although that stance is admirable of a vendor in certain cases, it's not the case here. You lost me as a potential customer as well.
Well presented....Grand Poobear!
07-26-2009, 08:28 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by EuroCarFan' post='954019' date='Jul 25 2009, 10:13 AM
Okay allow Grand Poobah to comment here.
Jon, you may not think this will hurt your business or maybe the members on this forum are insignificant to your enormous customer base from your multi-million dollar business but that just shows your poor judgement. I certainly do not wish your business to falter but the big mistake you made here is that you're alienating potential customers while trying to defend a supplier yet I don't believe you personally have any solid, personal proof as to the validity of their products....only pictures of a large and well run facility.
Look at Trinity Autosport. They were also selling AFE products but when real world results came out showing problems with the intakes, they didn't sit there and defend AFE, they sided with their customers and tried to rectify the situation. I think it was Trinity who also asked for the AFE executive to get on this board to address the concerns which demonstrated a fair and unbiased approach to dealing with the problems. That's far from what you're doing. You could have simply stated that you can get or do have proof that AFE products work and produced them instead of posting some of the argumentative and condescending remarks to members here.
I guess your purpose is to stand behind products that you sell and although that stance is admirable of a vendor in certain cases, it's not the case here. You lost me as a potential customer as well.
Jon, you may not think this will hurt your business or maybe the members on this forum are insignificant to your enormous customer base from your multi-million dollar business but that just shows your poor judgement. I certainly do not wish your business to falter but the big mistake you made here is that you're alienating potential customers while trying to defend a supplier yet I don't believe you personally have any solid, personal proof as to the validity of their products....only pictures of a large and well run facility.
Look at Trinity Autosport. They were also selling AFE products but when real world results came out showing problems with the intakes, they didn't sit there and defend AFE, they sided with their customers and tried to rectify the situation. I think it was Trinity who also asked for the AFE executive to get on this board to address the concerns which demonstrated a fair and unbiased approach to dealing with the problems. That's far from what you're doing. You could have simply stated that you can get or do have proof that AFE products work and produced them instead of posting some of the argumentative and condescending remarks to members here.
I guess your purpose is to stand behind products that you sell and although that stance is admirable of a vendor in certain cases, it's not the case here. You lost me as a potential customer as well.
07-26-2009, 12:31 PM
#114
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I am a definite believer that the AFE system absolutely, positively does not work at all!! In fact not only did it not make a drop of horsepower it made my car loose horsepower. I was dynoing less than what a stock m5 should be. Then I took my car to RPI and wallah!! Instant horsepower!!!
07-26-2009, 07:46 PM
#115
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Originally Posted by hypers09' post='954780' date='Jul 26 2009, 04:31 PM
I am a definite believer that the AFE system absolutely, positively does not work at all!! In fact not only did it not make a drop of horsepower it made my car loose horsepower. I was dynoing less than what a stock m5 should be. Then I took my car to RPI and wallah!! Instant horsepower!!!
07-26-2009, 09:02 PM
#116
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My Ride: 2006 BMW M5
Words from DINAN
http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info...dern-bmw-engine
"
By way of summary, following are some of the more significant factors that you should keep in mind when considering dyno testing in general terms, as well as what to look for in the facility itself.
1) Each dyno will produce different results (even with the same brand of dyno).
2) The octane rating of fuel varies in different parts of the country (you must have a controlled fuel supply).
3) Cold weather increases the gains and hot weather decreases them, even with temperature corrections.
4) Lack of oxygen from exhaust in a dyno room will cause a loss in power.
5) Slipping tires on the rollers will reduce the measured gains.
6) Inertia type dynos have a lighter load than the car will see on the road. This is especially true for cars with heavy drive trains because some of the power will get absorbed spinning the masses faster. The inertia correction programs employed in these types of dyno's are not completely accurate.
7) Fixed load dynos have a higher load than what the car sees on the road. This excessive load will result in a large mixture shift and the detonation sensor will be activated prematurely.
8) No dyno can accurately simulate wind resistance, the ram air effect into the airbox or cooling of the intake tract under the hood.
9) The size of the fan used during testing will change the power output.
10) Oil temperatures will affect output due to changes in friction.
11) The air intake temperature sensor will trigger adjustments to fuel mixture and ignition timing.
Dinan is certainly not the only BMW tuner in the world that understands the variables and complexity of proper dyno testing and tuning. I have a great deal of respect for the handful of BMW tuners around the world that share our passion for accuracy. Unfortunately, this level of dyno testing sophistication appears to be the exception and simply won't be found in common dyno facilities that rent their time. The purpose of this paper is to provide our customers with a deeper understanding of our test procedures and why they have been developed. We too are constantly learning more about the science and updating our equipment whenever significant improvements in the technology occur in an effort to provide our customers with the most valid data possible. In addition, Dinan also employs an engine dyno test cell, but we'll save a discussion on that technology for another time.
"
DINAN is a FULLY BMW tuner only exclusively for BMW cars and does not tune other brands... They test dynos and tracks!!.
AFE does for multi brands cars specially american cars..... only dyno test. no tracks
RPI does for few several brands.... only dyno test neither tracks..
So IMO: I stick DINAN cuz they are truly BMW tuners. I know their products are pricey. oh well! it is a first class quality.
http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info...dern-bmw-engine
"
By way of summary, following are some of the more significant factors that you should keep in mind when considering dyno testing in general terms, as well as what to look for in the facility itself.
1) Each dyno will produce different results (even with the same brand of dyno).
2) The octane rating of fuel varies in different parts of the country (you must have a controlled fuel supply).
3) Cold weather increases the gains and hot weather decreases them, even with temperature corrections.
4) Lack of oxygen from exhaust in a dyno room will cause a loss in power.
5) Slipping tires on the rollers will reduce the measured gains.
6) Inertia type dynos have a lighter load than the car will see on the road. This is especially true for cars with heavy drive trains because some of the power will get absorbed spinning the masses faster. The inertia correction programs employed in these types of dyno's are not completely accurate.
7) Fixed load dynos have a higher load than what the car sees on the road. This excessive load will result in a large mixture shift and the detonation sensor will be activated prematurely.
8) No dyno can accurately simulate wind resistance, the ram air effect into the airbox or cooling of the intake tract under the hood.
9) The size of the fan used during testing will change the power output.
10) Oil temperatures will affect output due to changes in friction.
11) The air intake temperature sensor will trigger adjustments to fuel mixture and ignition timing.
Dinan is certainly not the only BMW tuner in the world that understands the variables and complexity of proper dyno testing and tuning. I have a great deal of respect for the handful of BMW tuners around the world that share our passion for accuracy. Unfortunately, this level of dyno testing sophistication appears to be the exception and simply won't be found in common dyno facilities that rent their time. The purpose of this paper is to provide our customers with a deeper understanding of our test procedures and why they have been developed. We too are constantly learning more about the science and updating our equipment whenever significant improvements in the technology occur in an effort to provide our customers with the most valid data possible. In addition, Dinan also employs an engine dyno test cell, but we'll save a discussion on that technology for another time.
"
DINAN is a FULLY BMW tuner only exclusively for BMW cars and does not tune other brands... They test dynos and tracks!!.
AFE does for multi brands cars specially american cars..... only dyno test. no tracks
RPI does for few several brands.... only dyno test neither tracks..
So IMO: I stick DINAN cuz they are truly BMW tuners. I know their products are pricey. oh well! it is a first class quality.
07-26-2009, 09:47 PM
#118
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Originally Posted by miguex' post='955168' date='Jul 27 2009, 12:02 AM
Words from DINAN
http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info...dern-bmw-engine
"
By way of summary, following are some of the more significant factors that you should keep in mind when considering dyno testing in general terms, as well as what to look for in the facility itself.
1) Each dyno will produce different results (even with the same brand of dyno).
2) The octane rating of fuel varies in different parts of the country (you must have a controlled fuel supply).
3) Cold weather increases the gains and hot weather decreases them, even with temperature corrections.
4) Lack of oxygen from exhaust in a dyno room will cause a loss in power.
5) Slipping tires on the rollers will reduce the measured gains.
6) Inertia type dynos have a lighter load than the car will see on the road. This is especially true for cars with heavy drive trains because some of the power will get absorbed spinning the masses faster. The inertia correction programs employed in these types of dyno's are not completely accurate.
7) Fixed load dynos have a higher load than what the car sees on the road. This excessive load will result in a large mixture shift and the detonation sensor will be activated prematurely.
8) No dyno can accurately simulate wind resistance, the ram air effect into the airbox or cooling of the intake tract under the hood.
9) The size of the fan used during testing will change the power output.
10) Oil temperatures will affect output due to changes in friction.
11) The air intake temperature sensor will trigger adjustments to fuel mixture and ignition timing.
Dinan is certainly not the only BMW tuner in the world that understands the variables and complexity of proper dyno testing and tuning. I have a great deal of respect for the handful of BMW tuners around the world that share our passion for accuracy. Unfortunately, this level of dyno testing sophistication appears to be the exception and simply won't be found in common dyno facilities that rent their time. The purpose of this paper is to provide our customers with a deeper understanding of our test procedures and why they have been developed. We too are constantly learning more about the science and updating our equipment whenever significant improvements in the technology occur in an effort to provide our customers with the most valid data possible. In addition, Dinan also employs an engine dyno test cell, but we'll save a discussion on that technology for another time.
"
DINAN is a FULLY BMW tuner only exclusively for BMW cars and does not tune other brands... They test dynos and tracks!!.
AFE does for multi brands cars specially american cars..... only dyno test. no tracks
RPI does for few several brands.... only dyno test neither tracks..
So IMO: I stick DINAN cuz they are truly BMW tuners. I know their products are pricey. oh well! it is a first class quality.
http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technial-info...dern-bmw-engine
"
By way of summary, following are some of the more significant factors that you should keep in mind when considering dyno testing in general terms, as well as what to look for in the facility itself.
1) Each dyno will produce different results (even with the same brand of dyno).
2) The octane rating of fuel varies in different parts of the country (you must have a controlled fuel supply).
3) Cold weather increases the gains and hot weather decreases them, even with temperature corrections.
4) Lack of oxygen from exhaust in a dyno room will cause a loss in power.
5) Slipping tires on the rollers will reduce the measured gains.
6) Inertia type dynos have a lighter load than the car will see on the road. This is especially true for cars with heavy drive trains because some of the power will get absorbed spinning the masses faster. The inertia correction programs employed in these types of dyno's are not completely accurate.
7) Fixed load dynos have a higher load than what the car sees on the road. This excessive load will result in a large mixture shift and the detonation sensor will be activated prematurely.
8) No dyno can accurately simulate wind resistance, the ram air effect into the airbox or cooling of the intake tract under the hood.
9) The size of the fan used during testing will change the power output.
10) Oil temperatures will affect output due to changes in friction.
11) The air intake temperature sensor will trigger adjustments to fuel mixture and ignition timing.
Dinan is certainly not the only BMW tuner in the world that understands the variables and complexity of proper dyno testing and tuning. I have a great deal of respect for the handful of BMW tuners around the world that share our passion for accuracy. Unfortunately, this level of dyno testing sophistication appears to be the exception and simply won't be found in common dyno facilities that rent their time. The purpose of this paper is to provide our customers with a deeper understanding of our test procedures and why they have been developed. We too are constantly learning more about the science and updating our equipment whenever significant improvements in the technology occur in an effort to provide our customers with the most valid data possible. In addition, Dinan also employs an engine dyno test cell, but we'll save a discussion on that technology for another time.
"
DINAN is a FULLY BMW tuner only exclusively for BMW cars and does not tune other brands... They test dynos and tracks!!.
AFE does for multi brands cars specially american cars..... only dyno test. no tracks
RPI does for few several brands.... only dyno test neither tracks..
So IMO: I stick DINAN cuz they are truly BMW tuners. I know their products are pricey. oh well! it is a first class quality.
I guess Miguex does make a really good point about the way you dyno a car. In this case, I took my car in at 10:30 in the morning and it was dynoed a short while after. I know on that day the temperature was around 75 degrees. After I put the scoops in, it was probably around 80 degrees and it was done at 4:00 in the afternoon. I know what you are talking about RPI only dyno tuning but, in this instance I felt the difference in real world horsepower too. Now I wasn't a believer that an intake could make such a difference but, unfortunately for the AFE supporters it did. And if anyone wants to buy my old set up I believe Eloy may still have it at his shop. Like I told Eloy, the AFE system does look cool.
07-26-2009, 10:45 PM
#119
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- Each dyno will produce different results (even with the same brand of dyno).
Definitely correct, and very VERY important to remember. Even with the same brand and same model dyno, results will vary. It's best to go back to the same dyno and use the same operator. Use one that you trust. - The octane rating of fuel varies in different parts of the country (you must have a controlled fuel supply).
Not only just the octane rating, but the formulation itself matters too. - Cold weather increases the gains and hot weather decreases them, even with temperature corrections.
Depends on type of dyno. Some of the better dynos can correct accurately within a certain window given the temperature, barometric pressure, and relative humidity, holding oxygen content constant. Just temperature corrections has limited usefulness. Next time you get a dyno done, make sure they have a weather station unit there and are using it. - Lack of oxygen from exhaust in a dyno room will cause a loss in power.
Correct again. That's why it's so nice to dyno outside, have a huge dyno room, or have a huge amount of airflow through the cell. - Slipping tires on the rollers will reduce the measured gains.
Very correct for single roller dynos. Negligably correct for dual roller dynos on cars with less than 1000hp and given properly inflated tires. Absolutely incorrect for DynoPacks. - Inertia type dynos have a lighter load than the car will see on the road. This is especially true for cars with heavy drive trains because some of the power will get absorbed spinning the masses faster. The inertia correction programs employed in these types of dyno's are not completely accurate.
Yep, correct again. However, they are reasonably consistent. - Fixed load dynos have a higher load than what the car sees on the road. This excessive load will result in a large mixture shift and the detonation sensor will be activated prematurely.
Yep. You should see mixture shifts in the A/F reading. - No dyno can accurately simulate wind resistance, the ram air effect into the airbox or cooling of the intake tract under the hood.
Correct, since it's the fan's job, not the dyno. In the same way no BMW can properly prepare you a breakfast burrito. - The size of the fan used during testing will change the power output.
Correct, that's why it's important to keep this constant. Do not change fans, do not change fan locations, do not change fan angles. - Oil temperatures will affect output due to changes in friction.
Again correct. Important to test a car when fully warm, and test over and over, pull after pull after pull. You'll see power stabilize and/or trend in one direction or another. This is the only way to get a complete picture of the results. - The air intake temperature sensor will trigger adjustments to fuel mixture and ignition timing.
Definitely correct. Good (and consistant) placement of the intake air temp sensor is important.
