Forgestar Wheels
05-25-2010, 09:56 PM
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So we all know forgestar and their method of flow form or atleast heard about it. I dont like forgestar simply because there isnt any forging involved and having a name like that is misleading.
There now you know where I stand.
Im presenting some information because it might help people out and I know there is ZERO discussion about it here on these boards.
Come to your own conclusions, I won't presume to make up your mind for you. If any vendors that have hard data concerning this feel free to chime in.
Accusation:
The loading rating of Forgestar wheels is UNDER what BMW recommends by a lot
from 1addicts.com
"Forgestar wheels are not CNC from a blank or stamp forged. They aren't a true forged, wheel and I remember them explaining their name in a thread somewhere. They are Flow formed. Which means the face is cast, and the barrel is then rolled out. They have a decent write up on their site I think.
I didn't see any 17.3lbs 18" wheels made by forgestar, at least not in a bmw fitment. Or are you asking about O.Z? who also doesn't make an 18" bmw wheel that's 17.3lbs that I know of.
EDIT: I looked on their site, and they list the test results for their wheels. the 18" wheel they tested was 17.7lbs on the sheet, BUT it was tested for a load rating of 1200lbs, which is significantly under the minimum required for the bmw bolt pattern. It's actually the lowest I've ever seen to date. A wheel can be significantly lighter if it doesn't have to hold up to the standard load rating.
I'm assuming/hoping that their actually production 18" wheels were tested for a higher load rating around 1500lbs or more. There's no way the wheel passed a higher load rating at that weight though with the mesh design. I peaked at a few other wheels and they were 1500lbs, I'm sure they can clarify this. I don't want to make a big deal out of it, if all they did was post old testing information."
"We tested our CS7 wheels in 18" at 1450lb per corner and passed and had to change it to 1550lbs per corner because of the new JWL/VIA standards and passed as well.
"The minimum required load on a BMW ranges from 660kg to 725kg per corner or 1450lbs to 1600lbs per corner"
Modbargains Responds
"Hey Guys,
I see your concerns, and to better help you understand Flow-Formed wheels and the load rating here is some really good information
Flow Forming is pressure that is applied to the cast rim, actually changing the wheels mechanical properties. The strength and impact values become similar to those of a forged wheel.
Now understand that the Forgestar wheels are optimized at 1200lbs load rating but it was actually tested at 1845lbs and PASSED! Thats exactly why these wheels are so damn great!
The Data speaks for itself, look at it.
FORGESTAR F14 TEST DATA:
STL Report 18x8.5 (http://www.forgestar.com/test/FORGESTAR1885F14.pdf)
STL Report 18x12 (http://www.forgestar.com/test/FORGESTAR1812F14.pdf)
The STL shows that the initial deflection is .068 after an 1825lbs test load the final deflection was .066. That was after 5.11 hours of testing!
After all that load testing there was pretty much no flex at .002
Forgestar also uses a new testing data standard called SAE J2530. It surpasses any test data out there now, this new standard is harder to pass than TUV!
Please understand that the reason it is optimized at 1200 is because the creators of this wheel made it with the intentions of putting it on lighter car. e.g. Porches, E82 1series, and the E90/92 3series type of cars!"
Response:
"Kevin you are terribly mistaken. The 1845lbs/ft (pounds per sq foot) is the rotary load required for testing a 18x8.5 wheel with a 1200lbs load per corner according to SAE J2530 standards. It does not mean the wheel is capable of sustaining a load of 1845lbs per corner.
By engineering standards, if a wheel is optimized for a 1200lbs load it`ll most likely be able to hold +/- 10% of that load to account for errors, not an exorbitant 1845lbs as you suggested. Flow Forming is quite better than cast but please check your data. Keep in mind a wheel rated at the suggested load rating for a BMW of around 695kg will have the same strength regardless if the wheel is forged, flow formed or cast. Only the weight will vary.
A rating of 1200lb per corner is very risky for any BMW."
"As mentioned above that number is the not load rating. The load rating is 1200lbs. Which is dangerously low. The wheels are certified for 1200lbs load ratings which is ok if that is all they would ever see. On a BMW wheel intended for the street, 690KGS is needed.
Going by his information the 25lbs 20x9" wheel would be capable of handling a 2748lbs load rating. It's impossible. The wheel would have to be something like 40lbs+ to be able to withstand that. The wheel has a cast face and thin spokes. Even a fully forged wheel with an extra pound or two of spoke material could not withstand 2748lbs. That is off road wheel and diesel truck territory.
And Tarthuss brings up another fantastic issue of load rating being equal among all manufacturing processes when they are designed to withstand the same load rating (assuming they are all optimized). Cast wheels need more metal to reach the same load rating as forged wheels, flow formed wheels save weight in the barrel ONLY over a cast wheel. These wheel would be lighter then a similar design cast wheel with a load rating of 1200lbs (if you can even find another 5x120 wheel on the market with such a low rating) that's it. load rating wise they would be the same. And a forged wheel would be lighter then the above because it would need less material to achieve the same strength. But once that load rating is surpassed, they will all fail in different ways (benefit of forged is they will distort before they crack)."
Modbargains Final Say in thread:
"Why is everyone discrediting the SAE J2530 testing standard? I think many of you are misinformed and here is some good information to help you better understand the SAE J2530.
The SAE J2530 Aftermarket Wheel Performance Requirements and Test Procedures is a new standard developed for the aftermarket wheel industry to assure that the wheels produced for use on passenger cars and light trucks are safe and reliable.
The testing requirements of J2530 are composed of 3 performance tests.
1. The first is a Dynamic Cornering Fatigue Test. This is a test that simulates the forces of load put on a wheel when the vehicle is turning a corner or going around a curve.
2. The second is a Dynamic Radial Fatigue Test. This is a test that simulates the forces of load that the wheel experiences with a tire mounted and carrying the weight of the vehicle, passengers and or cargo.
3. The third is an Impact Test. This is a test designed to test the effect on the wheel in the event of an impact to the wheel such as hitting a pot hole or side impact into a curb.
This test supersedes all the previous testing standards."
There you go, I tried to edit out the slander and fluff but follow up on it. There has been atleast 1 report of a forgestar rim cracking from normal use and it is now back at forgestar for analysis i think
There now you know where I stand.
Im presenting some information because it might help people out and I know there is ZERO discussion about it here on these boards.
Come to your own conclusions, I won't presume to make up your mind for you. If any vendors that have hard data concerning this feel free to chime in.
Accusation:
The loading rating of Forgestar wheels is UNDER what BMW recommends by a lot
from 1addicts.com
"Forgestar wheels are not CNC from a blank or stamp forged. They aren't a true forged, wheel and I remember them explaining their name in a thread somewhere. They are Flow formed. Which means the face is cast, and the barrel is then rolled out. They have a decent write up on their site I think.
I didn't see any 17.3lbs 18" wheels made by forgestar, at least not in a bmw fitment. Or are you asking about O.Z? who also doesn't make an 18" bmw wheel that's 17.3lbs that I know of.
EDIT: I looked on their site, and they list the test results for their wheels. the 18" wheel they tested was 17.7lbs on the sheet, BUT it was tested for a load rating of 1200lbs, which is significantly under the minimum required for the bmw bolt pattern. It's actually the lowest I've ever seen to date. A wheel can be significantly lighter if it doesn't have to hold up to the standard load rating.
I'm assuming/hoping that their actually production 18" wheels were tested for a higher load rating around 1500lbs or more. There's no way the wheel passed a higher load rating at that weight though with the mesh design. I peaked at a few other wheels and they were 1500lbs, I'm sure they can clarify this. I don't want to make a big deal out of it, if all they did was post old testing information."
"We tested our CS7 wheels in 18" at 1450lb per corner and passed and had to change it to 1550lbs per corner because of the new JWL/VIA standards and passed as well.
"The minimum required load on a BMW ranges from 660kg to 725kg per corner or 1450lbs to 1600lbs per corner"
Modbargains Responds
"Hey Guys,
I see your concerns, and to better help you understand Flow-Formed wheels and the load rating here is some really good information
Flow Forming is pressure that is applied to the cast rim, actually changing the wheels mechanical properties. The strength and impact values become similar to those of a forged wheel.
Now understand that the Forgestar wheels are optimized at 1200lbs load rating but it was actually tested at 1845lbs and PASSED! Thats exactly why these wheels are so damn great!
The Data speaks for itself, look at it.
FORGESTAR F14 TEST DATA:
STL Report 18x8.5 (http://www.forgestar.com/test/FORGESTAR1885F14.pdf)
STL Report 18x12 (http://www.forgestar.com/test/FORGESTAR1812F14.pdf)
The STL shows that the initial deflection is .068 after an 1825lbs test load the final deflection was .066. That was after 5.11 hours of testing!
After all that load testing there was pretty much no flex at .002
Forgestar also uses a new testing data standard called SAE J2530. It surpasses any test data out there now, this new standard is harder to pass than TUV!
Please understand that the reason it is optimized at 1200 is because the creators of this wheel made it with the intentions of putting it on lighter car. e.g. Porches, E82 1series, and the E90/92 3series type of cars!"
Response:
"Kevin you are terribly mistaken. The 1845lbs/ft (pounds per sq foot) is the rotary load required for testing a 18x8.5 wheel with a 1200lbs load per corner according to SAE J2530 standards. It does not mean the wheel is capable of sustaining a load of 1845lbs per corner.
By engineering standards, if a wheel is optimized for a 1200lbs load it`ll most likely be able to hold +/- 10% of that load to account for errors, not an exorbitant 1845lbs as you suggested. Flow Forming is quite better than cast but please check your data. Keep in mind a wheel rated at the suggested load rating for a BMW of around 695kg will have the same strength regardless if the wheel is forged, flow formed or cast. Only the weight will vary.
A rating of 1200lb per corner is very risky for any BMW."
"As mentioned above that number is the not load rating. The load rating is 1200lbs. Which is dangerously low. The wheels are certified for 1200lbs load ratings which is ok if that is all they would ever see. On a BMW wheel intended for the street, 690KGS is needed.
Going by his information the 25lbs 20x9" wheel would be capable of handling a 2748lbs load rating. It's impossible. The wheel would have to be something like 40lbs+ to be able to withstand that. The wheel has a cast face and thin spokes. Even a fully forged wheel with an extra pound or two of spoke material could not withstand 2748lbs. That is off road wheel and diesel truck territory.
And Tarthuss brings up another fantastic issue of load rating being equal among all manufacturing processes when they are designed to withstand the same load rating (assuming they are all optimized). Cast wheels need more metal to reach the same load rating as forged wheels, flow formed wheels save weight in the barrel ONLY over a cast wheel. These wheel would be lighter then a similar design cast wheel with a load rating of 1200lbs (if you can even find another 5x120 wheel on the market with such a low rating) that's it. load rating wise they would be the same. And a forged wheel would be lighter then the above because it would need less material to achieve the same strength. But once that load rating is surpassed, they will all fail in different ways (benefit of forged is they will distort before they crack)."
Modbargains Final Say in thread:
"Why is everyone discrediting the SAE J2530 testing standard? I think many of you are misinformed and here is some good information to help you better understand the SAE J2530.
The SAE J2530 Aftermarket Wheel Performance Requirements and Test Procedures is a new standard developed for the aftermarket wheel industry to assure that the wheels produced for use on passenger cars and light trucks are safe and reliable.
The testing requirements of J2530 are composed of 3 performance tests.
1. The first is a Dynamic Cornering Fatigue Test. This is a test that simulates the forces of load put on a wheel when the vehicle is turning a corner or going around a curve.
2. The second is a Dynamic Radial Fatigue Test. This is a test that simulates the forces of load that the wheel experiences with a tire mounted and carrying the weight of the vehicle, passengers and or cargo.
3. The third is an Impact Test. This is a test designed to test the effect on the wheel in the event of an impact to the wheel such as hitting a pot hole or side impact into a curb.
This test supersedes all the previous testing standards."
There you go, I tried to edit out the slander and fluff but follow up on it. There has been atleast 1 report of a forgestar rim cracking from normal use and it is now back at forgestar for analysis i think
05-25-2010, 10:04 PM
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Hi,
As a vendor I try and stay as objective as possible. Thanks for the info PTL. There is a reason I stopped carrying Forgestar & iForged. Vincent @ iForged and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of business issues and his Forgestar branding is one of them.
All I know is there have been countless times where I've had to say "Please keep in mind, Forgestar wheels ARE NOT forged!"
Michael
Acute Performance
As a vendor I try and stay as objective as possible. Thanks for the info PTL. There is a reason I stopped carrying Forgestar & iForged. Vincent @ iForged and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of business issues and his Forgestar branding is one of them.
All I know is there have been countless times where I've had to say "Please keep in mind, Forgestar wheels ARE NOT forged!"
Michael
Acute Performance
05-25-2010, 10:06 PM
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Hi,
As a vendor I try and stay as objective as possible. Thanks for the info PTL. There is a reason I stopped carrying Forgestar & iForged. Vincent @ iForged and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of business issues and his Forgestar branding is one of them.
All I know is there have been countless times where I've had to say "Please keep in mind, Forgestar wheels ARE NOT forged!"
Michael
Acute Performance
As a vendor I try and stay as objective as possible. Thanks for the info PTL. There is a reason I stopped carrying Forgestar & iForged. Vincent @ iForged and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of business issues and his Forgestar branding is one of them.
All I know is there have been countless times where I've had to say "Please keep in mind, Forgestar wheels ARE NOT forged!"
Michael
Acute Performance
Understandable, many people think they are getting close to forged strength with these wheels and if that was true and they measured the same way that many forged companies test, I would have bought some.
Anyway, I just came upon it and was reading it and saw the thread of the cracked forgestar wheel and was curious to see what else was out there. I know its a new company and all but the more information the better.
05-25-2010, 10:09 PM
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It's a new company by name but not by trade. Forgestar and iForged are the same company.
Michael
Michael
Understandable, many people think they are getting close to forged strength with these wheels and if that was true and they measured the same way that many forged companies test, I would have bought some.
Anyway, I just came upon it and was reading it and saw the thread of the cracked forgestar wheel and was curious to see what else was out there. I know its a new company and all but the more information the better.
Anyway, I just came upon it and was reading it and saw the thread of the cracked forgestar wheel and was curious to see what else was out there. I know its a new company and all but the more information the better.
05-25-2010, 10:10 PM
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05-26-2010, 03:18 AM
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I'm so glad I didn't go with Forgestar wheels when I was deciding a few months ago. There has been so much negative discussion about these wheels on here and the m5board. Thanks for posting the info. More people need to educate themselves about these wheels before making their decision.
05-26-2010, 07:22 AM
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premium package/active steering/auto sunshade/tiag/black dakota leather/logic 7
35% tint all around
19' DPE GT7
thats too bad, I really liked the look of the F14 wheels, and was debating them for a winter setup
05-26-2010, 07:29 AM
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Some information that should be made clear. The discussion you've copied and pasted without linking is from here:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ar+load+rating
PaintPro21 is the co-founder of AluFugen wheels.
As a reseller of Forgestar wheels, I would love to get a true and honest 3rd party engineering review of the wheels as we have been aware of 1 cracked rim, but this definately isn't it.
It it also obvious ModBargains or any other retailers for that matter do not have the technical knowledge to answer such "accusations". It is up to Forgestar to do so. ModBargains will simply re-iterate what is posted on Forgestar's website with a few twist of words.
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ar+load+rating
PaintPro21 is the co-founder of AluFugen wheels.
As a reseller of Forgestar wheels, I would love to get a true and honest 3rd party engineering review of the wheels as we have been aware of 1 cracked rim, but this definately isn't it.
It it also obvious ModBargains or any other retailers for that matter do not have the technical knowledge to answer such "accusations". It is up to Forgestar to do so. ModBargains will simply re-iterate what is posted on Forgestar's website with a few twist of words.
05-26-2010, 08:35 AM
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Some information that should be made clear. The discussion you've copied and pasted without linking is from here:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ar+load+rating
PaintPro21 is the co-founder of AluFugen wheels.
As a reseller of Forgestar wheels, I would love to get a true and honest 3rd party engineering review of the wheels as we have been aware of 1 cracked rim, but this definately isn't it.
It it also obvious ModBargains or any other retailers for that matter do not have the technical knowledge to answer such "accusations". It is up to Forgestar to do so. ModBargains will simply re-iterate what is posted on Forgestar's website with a few twist of words.
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ar+load+rating
PaintPro21 is the co-founder of AluFugen wheels.
As a reseller of Forgestar wheels, I would love to get a true and honest 3rd party engineering review of the wheels as we have been aware of 1 cracked rim, but this definately isn't it.
It it also obvious ModBargains or any other retailers for that matter do not have the technical knowledge to answer such "accusations". It is up to Forgestar to do so. ModBargains will simply re-iterate what is posted on Forgestar's website with a few twist of words.
So are you suggesting that PaintPro21 is lying because he doesnt sell Forgestar? All of the information that was stated against forgestar came from their own website and their load testing that they did.
The only thing that is in major question is a) if their SAE test really does trump TUV and JWL and b)if their wheels are grossly under loading for our cars as is being argued.
So then what you are saying about Modbargains is they have no business defending the product because they dont have the technical background to do so.
Do you?
Forgestar has remained silent about the issue on the forums but who knows what they are doing