what handles better i6 or v8
08-31-2009, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='994054' date='Aug 31 2009, 04:21 PM
Applying the logical extension to that train of thought, are you suggesting the 535 would also out-handle the M5? That's also considerably heavier than the 535...
More to the point, the stock 535 Sport suspension is not the same as the standard 550 Sport suspension. The US market 550 Sport will always have the M-Sport, which is not the same as the standard setup on the stock 535 Sport. It is now possible to add M-Sport to a 535, but unless you do that it is indeed different. Furthermore, it is not clear whether the 535/550 M-Sports are in fact the same - BMW used to refer to the M-Sport 550 suspension as being "recalibrated" in its brochures. I'm not sure whether it still does. Either way, you need to also take into consideration the wheel and tire differences - the 550 M-Sport package brings the light 172's and non-RFT rubber.
More to the point, the stock 535 Sport suspension is not the same as the standard 550 Sport suspension. The US market 550 Sport will always have the M-Sport, which is not the same as the standard setup on the stock 535 Sport. It is now possible to add M-Sport to a 535, but unless you do that it is indeed different. Furthermore, it is not clear whether the 535/550 M-Sports are in fact the same - BMW used to refer to the M-Sport 550 suspension as being "recalibrated" in its brochures. I'm not sure whether it still does. Either way, you need to also take into consideration the wheel and tire differences - the 550 M-Sport package brings the light 172's and non-RFT rubber.
swajames, I've read numerous posts from you and so far I have pretty much agreed with your thoughts in just about every subject except this one.
With all due respect, I don't think your understanding.. this is a thread about 550i vs 535i in the handling department. As I said earlier there are lot of heavy cars that can handle great with proper set up eg. M5.. however, if that same M5 suspension set up was put on the 535i ( lighter car ) vs the M5 ( heavier car ).. the 535i would undoubtly handle better. So my first comment about the laws of physics still stands.
Now in regards to the Msport suspension versus reg sport suspension, I'm willing to bet that despite the assumption of "better" suspension of the Msport aka 550i suspension, its not significant enough to make a difference.
So to recap...
535i with M5 suspension is better than M5 in handling department.
535i with regular sport suspension is better than 550i in the handling department.
In conclusion.. have you seen a Miata or a lotus elise perform on curves? These smaller and LIGHTER cars will out handle any M5 with any suspension...
08-31-2009, 05:25 PM
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I wish someone would start another 535i versus 550i thread.... it's been a while!! 
08-31-2009, 05:42 PM
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Kzang, I agree with you that lighter car has advantage when it comes to handling. However, until someone can provide comparable test numbers, the statements below are speculation at best.
"535i with M5 suspension is better than M5 in handling department.
535i with regular sport suspension is better than 550i in the handling department"
The 535i is about 200 lbs lighter than the 550i, lighter but we're not talking about Lotus weight here. By the way, what is the "535i with M5 suspension"? That's like saying "the 350z with GT-R suspension"
"535i with M5 suspension is better than M5 in handling department.
535i with regular sport suspension is better than 550i in the handling department"
The 535i is about 200 lbs lighter than the 550i, lighter but we're not talking about Lotus weight here. By the way, what is the "535i with M5 suspension"? That's like saying "the 350z with GT-R suspension"
08-31-2009, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by calpalmer' post='994311' date='Aug 31 2009, 09:25 PM
I wish someone would start another 535i versus 550i thread.... it's been a while!!
08-31-2009, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kzang' post='994289' date='Aug 31 2009, 05:53 PM
swajames, I've read numerous posts from you and so far I have pretty much agreed with your thoughts in just about every subject except this one.
With all due respect, I don't think your understanding.. this is a thread about 550i vs 535i in the handling department. As I said earlier there are lot of heavy cars that can handle great with proper set up eg. M5.. however, if that same M5 suspension set up was put on the 535i ( lighter car ) vs the M5 ( heavier car ).. the 535i would undoubtly handle better. So my first comment about the laws of physics still stands.
Now in regards to the Msport suspension versus reg sport suspension, I'm willing to bet that despite the assumption of "better" suspension of the Msport aka 550i suspension, its not significant enough to make a difference.
So to recap...
535i with M5 suspension is better than M5 in handling department.
535i with regular sport suspension is better than 550i in the handling department.
In conclusion.. have you seen a Miata or a lotus elise perform on curves? These smaller and LIGHTER cars will out handle any M5 with any suspension...
With all due respect, I don't think your understanding.. this is a thread about 550i vs 535i in the handling department. As I said earlier there are lot of heavy cars that can handle great with proper set up eg. M5.. however, if that same M5 suspension set up was put on the 535i ( lighter car ) vs the M5 ( heavier car ).. the 535i would undoubtly handle better. So my first comment about the laws of physics still stands.
Now in regards to the Msport suspension versus reg sport suspension, I'm willing to bet that despite the assumption of "better" suspension of the Msport aka 550i suspension, its not significant enough to make a difference.
So to recap...
535i with M5 suspension is better than M5 in handling department.
535i with regular sport suspension is better than 550i in the handling department.
In conclusion.. have you seen a Miata or a lotus elise perform on curves? These smaller and LIGHTER cars will out handle any M5 with any suspension...
The E60 in all variants is a very fine handling car - but it isn't a particularly light one (it is massively heavier than both the Miata and the Elise). The real question, therefore, is what is the true impact of 200lbs when that added mass doesn't materially impact overall weight distribution? I believe it's reasonably negligible - the weight differential between a 535 and a 550 is certainly going to be less significant than, say, that same 200lb weight differential when it is tacked on to an Elise.
I don't think we really have any disagreement here, other than my own take on things is that an M-Sport 550 and the M5 will out-handle a 535 with the stock sport suspension. With an apples to apples comparison, assuming a 535 with the M-Sport setup, the position is, as you say, less clear. The 535 may very well handle better, but my real point was that you'd probably be hard pressed to spot any meaningful difference.
Just to finish, you're not wrong on the Miata. The hardest I've ever cornered in my life was in a fully race-prepped Miata driven round a track by an instructor. Until that point, I had no idea it was physically possible to corner that hard in a road car! That thing could truly rearrange your internal organs...
08-31-2009, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by goodman' post='993196' date='Aug 30 2009, 03:38 PM
it would be great to get a 535i and 550i together and try them against each other. anybody ever done that?
09-01-2009, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by zen68' post='994332' date='Aug 31 2009, 09:42 PM
By the way, what is the "535i with M5 suspension"? That's like saying "the 350z with GT-R suspension"
09-01-2009, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='994535' date='Sep 1 2009, 12:31 AM
Good points, Kzang. My primary point was really that weight is only one component of what is essentially a very complex engineering equation. There's no question that less weight is generally a good thing, but, without decent engineering behind it, a reduction in weight will ultimately contribute less. It's perfectly possible to build a small, light car that handles poorly, just as it's possible to build a heavier car that handles like a dream. In your two examples, the MX5/Miata and the Elise are already well engineered cars that benefit from "added lightness" (to coin Colin Chapman's turn of phrase) with everything underpinned by a solid suspension setup.
The E60 in all variants is a very fine handling car - but it isn't a particularly light one (it is massively heavier than both the Miata and the Elise). The real question, therefore, is what is the true impact of 200lbs when that added mass doesn't materially impact overall weight distribution? I believe it's reasonably negligible - the weight differential between a 535 and a 550 is certainly going to be less significant than, say, that same 200lb weight differential when it is tacked on to an Elise.
I don't think we really have any disagreement here, other than my own take on things is that an M-Sport 550 and the M5 will out-handle a 535 with the stock sport suspension. With an apples to apples comparison, assuming a 535 with the M-Sport setup, the position is, as you say, less clear. The 535 may very well handle better, but my real point was that you'd probably be hard pressed to spot any meaningful difference.
Just to finish, you're not wrong on the Miata. The hardest I've ever cornered in my life was in a fully race-prepped Miata driven round a track by an instructor. Until that point, I had no idea it was physically possible to corner that hard in a road car! That thing could truly rearrange your internal organs...
The E60 in all variants is a very fine handling car - but it isn't a particularly light one (it is massively heavier than both the Miata and the Elise). The real question, therefore, is what is the true impact of 200lbs when that added mass doesn't materially impact overall weight distribution? I believe it's reasonably negligible - the weight differential between a 535 and a 550 is certainly going to be less significant than, say, that same 200lb weight differential when it is tacked on to an Elise.
I don't think we really have any disagreement here, other than my own take on things is that an M-Sport 550 and the M5 will out-handle a 535 with the stock sport suspension. With an apples to apples comparison, assuming a 535 with the M-Sport setup, the position is, as you say, less clear. The 535 may very well handle better, but my real point was that you'd probably be hard pressed to spot any meaningful difference.
Just to finish, you're not wrong on the Miata. The hardest I've ever cornered in my life was in a fully race-prepped Miata driven round a track by an instructor. Until that point, I had no idea it was physically possible to corner that hard in a road car! That thing could truly rearrange your internal organs...
09-01-2009, 04:08 AM
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it is not only about weight but about weight distribution as well... I6 v. V8 could be a little tricky since V8 is a shorter engine and hence more weight is behind front axle... but in e60 is the whole nose (from A-pillars on) made of alu and I6 engines have al-mg blocks which makes them the lightest engines in its size... so yes, in case of e60 there is no doubt, less weight and center of gravity pretty much the same... 535i wins :-)