Stepping out of the 550 - MAJOR EYE OPENER
06-12-2009, 07:36 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='909170' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:31 AM
Well, I think that since he is NOT a nitwit, a dolt, and imbecile, like his predecessor - he will be fine. BTW, do you really consider one 88 yr old going ape shit "domestic terrorism"? I am a minority (hispanic) and if THAT's the best the skin heads have, I am not worried at all -they are all inbred morons anyway (maybe THAT's why they like Bush, they can identify)
One death is too many, and look who the idiot went and killed, a minority! Unbelievable! Both camps need to go, and reinstate the constitution ans the law of the land!!! Our Representatives are to be just that, not career politicians!!
06-12-2009, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='909123' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:04 AM
Unfortunately, the market for cars such as those you describe is close to zero... BMW won't even import its own small 4 cylinder cars - excellent cars it already has in its product inventory - into the US for this very reason. Stick shift accounts for a tiny proportion of sales. More to the point, it's not that the Big 3 didn't make a good car, GM and Ford at least had some product that would stand up against their import competition. The American middle class consumer, however, is highly aspirational and places a lot of value on kerb appeal. A BMW, MB or Audi projects a message to your neighbors that a GM doesn't. Not every buyer chooses a BMW because of their excellent driving dynamics. Our members here do - but we're a tiny proportion of BMW's customer base. GM's cars aren't awful per se, far from it some cases, but its their past over reliance on trucks and SUVs that got these guys into their current predicament more than the current quality of the passenger car line up.
I agree that Ford, GM and Chrysler make some decent products. But they generally suffer from the problem that the reputation of American carmakers is horrible that US consumers do not want their card and will not seriously consider them unless they are fire-sold like pieces of junk. It is a brand image problem. Most people in the $20-$30K car market -- that is, the heart of the car market -- want a Honda, Toyota or Nissan and not a Ford, GM or Chrysler. I am not sure what the American carmakers can do to overcome that stigma. Certainly one thing that GM can do is stop making disgustingly low-quality interiors.
06-12-2009, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sdg1871' post='909182' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:39 AM
Most people in the $20-$30K car market -- that is, the heart of the car market -- want a Honda, Toyota or Nissan and not a Ford, GM or Chrysler. I am not sure what the American carmakers can do to overcome that stigma.
06-12-2009, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pukka' post='909192' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:45 AM
The German "big 3" can easily hit that price range in the U.S. since they do in Germany. However, I don't think its so much because of the non-existant market as mentioned in previous posts - I think it has more to do with BMW's image in the U.S.
06-12-2009, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sdg1871' post='909182' date='Jun 12 2009, 08:39 AM
The American carmarkers have not been doomed by BMW or MB or Audi because most consumers cannot afford them. What has doomed our country's carmakers are Japanese cars such as the Accord and the Camry -- cars that have no "wow" factor but are regarded by consumers and mag mags as just simply better built, better engineered and more reliabile than comparable US cars.
I agree that Ford, GM and Chrysler make some decent products. But they generally suffer from the problem that the reputation of American carmakers is horrible that US consumers do not want their card and will not seriously consider them unless they are fire-sold like pieces of junk. It is a brand image problem. Most people in the $20-$30K car market -- that is, the heart of the car market -- want a Honda, Toyota or Nissan and not a Ford, GM or Chrysler. I am not sure what the American carmakers can do to overcome that stigma. Certainly one thing that GM can do is stop making disgustingly low-quality interiors.
I agree that Ford, GM and Chrysler make some decent products. But they generally suffer from the problem that the reputation of American carmakers is horrible that US consumers do not want their card and will not seriously consider them unless they are fire-sold like pieces of junk. It is a brand image problem. Most people in the $20-$30K car market -- that is, the heart of the car market -- want a Honda, Toyota or Nissan and not a Ford, GM or Chrysler. I am not sure what the American carmakers can do to overcome that stigma. Certainly one thing that GM can do is stop making disgustingly low-quality interiors.
06-12-2009, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='909203' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:57 AM
But it's the same basic point, sdg. You can substitute any import for the German premium brands and the underlying point still holds true. The brand stigma is very real, but it had its roots in consumer aspiration as much as the quality (or otherwise) of mainstream American cars. My point is that the best of the current domestic crop from GM and Ford is, frankly, as good as a Camry or an Accord. I was traveling last week and I rented a Focus that had 4 miles on the clock - and it was very good. Ride, handling, refinement and interior quality were up to Japanese standards. The other point is that it's tough to say with any reasonable certainty what constitutes an American car these days. Toyota and Honda design and build much of their product here in the US whereas the Mustang is built in Mexico...
It's true that many of the biggest daggers in the heart of the US auto industry (Camry/Accord) are built right here in the US. It is all about brand image or as I think you said "curb appeal". Our country's car makers have none anymore so most consumers no longer care if their quality is comparable to the foreign cars (whether or not those "foreign" cars are built in the US).
06-12-2009, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sdg1871' post='909221' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:12 AM
Yes I agree. The Focus is a very nice for its price. Its ratings for the Hybrid model from the car mags equal or better that of the Prius. I still can't say the same about GM cars (Caddy CTS-V, a remarkable sedan, excepted).
It's true that many of the biggest daggers in the heart of the US auto industry (Camry/Accord) are built right here in the US. It is all about brand image or as I think you said "curb appeal". Our country's car makers have none anymore so most consumers no longer care if their quality is comparable to the foreign cars (whether or not those "foreign" cars are built in the US).
It's true that many of the biggest daggers in the heart of the US auto industry (Camry/Accord) are built right here in the US. It is all about brand image or as I think you said "curb appeal". Our country's car makers have none anymore so most consumers no longer care if their quality is comparable to the foreign cars (whether or not those "foreign" cars are built in the US).
I cannot agree with the CTS-V being respectable, as I told someone at work - line up the E60, CTS-V, and Merc E class, then tell everyone you can have any one you want free - how many choose the Caddy? (pimps and gang bangers aside) No one in their right mind chooses the Caddy, sorry, as demonstrated on Top Gear the car performs well but the build quality sucks, the interior looks cheap, and reliability is questionable.
06-12-2009, 08:26 AM
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Actually, to correct my own post, it was a new 2010 Fusion I rented last week, not a Focus. My mistake. Trying to multi-task... The 2010 model was significantly redesigned and I thought it was a very good car - easily as good as the mainstream Japanese models.
06-12-2009, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='909236' date='Jun 12 2009, 12:26 PM
Actually, to correct my own post, it was a new 2010 Fusion I rented last week, not a Focus. My mistake. Trying to multi-task... The 2010 model was significantly redesigned and I thought it was a very good car - easily as good as the mainstream Japanese models.