Why BMW cannot get it right the first time?
09-27-2005, 08:26 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Sep 26 2005, 04:32 PM
Well, the Japs only get it right, because they wait until we have solved the problems, and then they copy the system. They are never at the same level, allways behind.
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
[snapback]175362[/snapback]
That being said, I believe Iceman's comment is right from history stand point. Many years ago, after WWII, Japanese consumer products were mainly good copies of existing technology. Not anymore. This is the case with Taiwanese, Korean, and eventually, Chinese consumer product.
I have visited a Japanese cigarette lighter factory in Tijuana (Scripto), and was amazed how well organized their production is. Total quality management philosophy is observed and can be felt everywhere. It is a culture that can be taught because every workers of whatever nationality there look very serious doing their tasks.
Unfortunately, quality do cost more. So it is best applied to higher end comsumer products such as electronics.
09-27-2005, 08:59 AM
#32
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The problem is not that these cars are vastly more unreliable on average than other cars, its that the complex computer system that runs them is effectively an impenetrable black box to all but probably less than a hundred programmers from Germany. I've done a lot of browsing through the TIS, and I can't count how many times I've seen this sequence recommended:
"To fix blah, do this:
1. Try blah.
2. Then try blah.
3. If it still doesn't work, replace the TCU (or other bloody expensive piece of electronics)."
It appears that for whatever reason some people have cars that are just amazingly hostile environments for the computers that BMW puts in them, and since the computers control everything, this means that all sorts of things go mysteriously wrong over and over again, and eventually the only 'solution' is to lemon law the thing. I can only imagine what happens to lemoned E60's - they probably just swap the TCU again and out it goes on the used market in hopes of finding a customer less aware of his rights.
"To fix blah, do this:
1. Try blah.
2. Then try blah.
3. If it still doesn't work, replace the TCU (or other bloody expensive piece of electronics)."
It appears that for whatever reason some people have cars that are just amazingly hostile environments for the computers that BMW puts in them, and since the computers control everything, this means that all sorts of things go mysteriously wrong over and over again, and eventually the only 'solution' is to lemon law the thing. I can only imagine what happens to lemoned E60's - they probably just swap the TCU again and out it goes on the used market in hopes of finding a customer less aware of his rights.
09-27-2005, 10:11 AM
#33
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One of the challenges in these discussions is separating out the qualitative "quality" definition (which speaks to issues like the feel and general luxuriousness of materials of construction) and the quantitative definition, which speaks to purely measurable criteria such as failure rate and reject rate on the production line. The two definitions are in no real way connected.
Most people would identify the Rolls-Royce as a very high-quality automobile. It is no question high-quality as measured by the qualitative criteria; I'd bet if measured by failure rate of various components the Roller would rate as mediocre.
Most people would identify the Rolls-Royce as a very high-quality automobile. It is no question high-quality as measured by the qualitative criteria; I'd bet if measured by failure rate of various components the Roller would rate as mediocre.
09-27-2005, 11:33 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by speedracerF4i' date='Sep 27 2005, 06:26 PM
Well Ice, I understand your pro-sentiment bias toward German products, but keep in mind that this is a global message board, and I am sure our friend from Japan will not appreciate your comment.
[snapback]175779[/snapback]
And I HATE everything in Germany with passion, seriously. I am more an American than a German... Just born in the wrong country...
And, BTW... Amendment 1... The freedom of speech...
I didn't post it to piss someone off, just because it is like that. Not just my personal observation...
09-27-2005, 11:40 AM
#35
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What Iceman said is true. Of course, it's generalizing, but then again, it's generally true: historically, Japanese business and industry has not innovated, but rather copied/imitated, and then perfected. In recent years you can argue that the balance has shifted toward more innovation, but it has only been because of their ability to benefit from copying others' innovations - which have had years of R&D and thousands of manhours behind them - and then, admittedly, perfecting (or at least improving and streamlining) the production and business processes associated with the product.
09-27-2005, 11:43 AM
#36
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My Ride: MY RIDE is DA real .-) HAMANN 5 aka BLACK MAMBA born on 16/06/2005/delivered on 05/08/2005 as following:
530dA (steptronic), Black II (JET), leather Dakota auburn black, mapple trim, head-up display, dynamic drive, active steering, adaptive xenon headlights (auto levelling) with headlight washers, alarm, comfort seats with massage function, advanced A/C, big compartment armrest, aux-in, MP3, Logic 7, Radio PRO, CD in-dash+cd changer, power rear sunshades, rear airbags, park distance control, auto dimming folding mirrors, smoking package, shiny shadow line (individual), fold down rear seats, ski bag, sport suspension, run flats on �116-style� rims (Good Year NCT5+), cup holders, debadged, fire extinguishers, additional permanent power outlet, BMW coat hanger, trunk release button (installed by Hobi), GPS tracking device and a big thx 2 Iceman.
Mods done:
� Authentic HAMANN FRONT APRON Including ellipsoid fog lights Item-No.: 10 060 110
� Authentic HAMANN REAR SPOILER Item-No.: 10 060 130,
� Authentic HAMANN HAMANN ALUMINIUM PEDALS For cars with manual gearbox Item-No.: 80 099 100 81,00 For cars with automatic transmission Item-No.: 80 099 120
� Authentic HAMANN FOOT REST In aluminium For left-hand drive vehicles Item No. : 80 099 122
� Authentic HAMANN HAND-BRAKE LEVER In aluminium For left- and right-hand drive cars Item No. : 80 099 216
� Authentic HAMANN Idrive of alu (sorry this is the only one in the World) but you can have it in carbon fiber ,
� Authentic HAMANN EXCLUSIVE FLOORMAT SET In black with HAMANN logo in silver For left-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 120 For right-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060
� Authentic HAMANN COVER FOR OIL FILLER CAP In aluminium Item-No.: 80 099 117
� Authentic HAMANN SPORT REAR MUFFLER 4 TAILPIPES Sport rear muffler with four round stainless-steel tailpipes ( � 76mm ) Item-No.: 50 060 111
� Authentic HAMANN new add-on for M pack rear with diffusor for quad pipes -AVAILABLE NOW (http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=30630&st=0#entry332409)
� ///M steering wheel w Pegasus logo (this will be also changed to three spoke sports)
� ///M pack rear
� HAMANN ECU upgrade 265 HP 608 Nm.
most improtant:
�real and working like a charm forumsbuy real LED tails and PIAA 4700k fogs!!! for HAMANN full front apron you need H3
� CustomAngels, Angel Eyes Brighter than stocks 10X, WHITE & (REd for shows).
� Authentic HAMANN LIGHT-ALLOY WHEELS DESIGN EDITION RACE 20"
Ultra-light forged 3-pieced light-alloy wheel, Cross-spoke-design,Spider in black, titanium, screwing,polished flange
DIMENSIONS : 9.0 J x 20 FA Item No.: 91 207 315
10.5 J x 20 only RA Item No.: 91 207 625
Recommended 20" Complete Wheel Set DESIGN EDITION RACE I went with most aggressive Combination A.10 FA 9.0 J x 20 / RA 10.5 J x 20 with tires: FA 245/30 ZR 20 / RA 285/25 ZR 20
� Authentic HAMANN LOWERING KIT 4 progressive sport springs Lowering by approx. 40 mm FA, 20 mm RA Item-No.: 20 060 125
� Authentic HAMANN TIRE - PRESSURE CHECK SENSOR SYSTEM
� Authentic HAMANN SIDE SILLS Item-No.: 10 060 120
� Authentic HAMANN REAL CF ROOF SPOLIER Item-No.: 10 060 235
� Authentic HAMANN AIRBAG SPORT STEERING WHEEL 3-SPOKE Three-spoke design w their SMG paddles (For assembly O.E. airbag in exchange)
� Authentic HAMANN sports mirrors (all functions)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
E60.net Clings
Still to do list;-):
� Our Hobi's camera system from : ww.switchchange.com).
� Individual leather interior (auburn+auburn alcantara)... and drive with sheer drivin' pleasure ... until 2009/2010 F10 comes or E60 possibly a 540d V8 diesel early in 2009 badly juiced!
I wud like to live in Germany and wud be a German.
work as tester for BMW
OT
This board is US based... actually...
And I HATE everything in Germany with passion, seriously. I am more an American than a German... Just born in the wrong country...
And, BTW... Amendment 1... The freedom of speech...
I didn't post it to piss someone off, just because it is like that. Not just my personal observation...
work as tester for BMW
OT
Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Sep 27 2005, 08:33 PM
[quote name='speedracerF4i' date='Sep 27 2005, 06:26 PM']Well Ice, I understand your pro-sentiment bias toward German products, but keep in mind that this is a global message board, and I am sure our friend from Japan will not appreciate your comment.
[snapback]175779[/snapback]
And I HATE everything in Germany with passion, seriously. I am more an American than a German... Just born in the wrong country...
And, BTW... Amendment 1... The freedom of speech...
I didn't post it to piss someone off, just because it is like that. Not just my personal observation...
[snapback]175891[/snapback]
[/quote]
09-27-2005, 12:19 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by Shebs' date='Sep 27 2005, 12:35 AM
[quote name='Iceman' date='Sep 27 2005, 01:32 AM']Well, the Japs only get it right, because they wait until we have solved the problems, and then they copy the system. They are never at the same level, allways behind.
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
[snapback]175362[/snapback]
Deming invented total quality management and was laughed at by his American peers, the Japs welcomed him and applied his techniques to end up having higher quality products than the Americans.
Ishikawa invented quality circles, where certain employees and workers are chosen to form a group that will observe the quality of a certain process, product or service and make sure that it meets the required standards. Ishikawa also invented the Ishikawa diagram (cause and effect diagram), which is also a great quality mangement tool.
Other quality gurus from Japan include Taguchi, who came out with the quality los function, which specified the cost you will need to provide certain quality standards, and the cost you will need to cover the problems that are going to arise if you don't meet those quality standards (he is a very smart guy).
There is also Shingo, which I don't remember what he did exactly (something realted to Zero Quality Control), but he added a lot to TQM.
Toyota Motors was one of the first company's in the car manufacturing world to apply total quality management techniques, I've even studied a book named "Toyota Quality Management"
. They now apply continuos supply chain which means that they don't stock car components, they just install parts coming from suppliers directly onto their cars (unbelievable). They have reached a tremendous level of control on their suppliers product quality and planning and scheduling for the number of needed parts so that they don't stock componenets.Sorry for a boring post, but just wanted to show that out of 8 Total Quality Management Gurus (Deming, Crosby, Feigenbaum, Garvin, Ishikawa, Taguchi, Shingo, and Juran) 3 were Japs and 4 operated primarily in Japan. That is why most of the Japanese products are of great quality
, not because they are reluctant to use new technology.[snapback]175606[/snapback]
[/quote]Great post. Thanks.
09-27-2005, 12:33 PM
#39
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My Ride: MY RIDE is DA real .-) HAMANN 5 aka BLACK MAMBA born on 16/06/2005/delivered on 05/08/2005 as following:
530dA (steptronic), Black II (JET), leather Dakota auburn black, mapple trim, head-up display, dynamic drive, active steering, adaptive xenon headlights (auto levelling) with headlight washers, alarm, comfort seats with massage function, advanced A/C, big compartment armrest, aux-in, MP3, Logic 7, Radio PRO, CD in-dash+cd changer, power rear sunshades, rear airbags, park distance control, auto dimming folding mirrors, smoking package, shiny shadow line (individual), fold down rear seats, ski bag, sport suspension, run flats on �116-style� rims (Good Year NCT5+), cup holders, debadged, fire extinguishers, additional permanent power outlet, BMW coat hanger, trunk release button (installed by Hobi), GPS tracking device and a big thx 2 Iceman.
Mods done:
� Authentic HAMANN FRONT APRON Including ellipsoid fog lights Item-No.: 10 060 110
� Authentic HAMANN REAR SPOILER Item-No.: 10 060 130,
� Authentic HAMANN HAMANN ALUMINIUM PEDALS For cars with manual gearbox Item-No.: 80 099 100 81,00 For cars with automatic transmission Item-No.: 80 099 120
� Authentic HAMANN FOOT REST In aluminium For left-hand drive vehicles Item No. : 80 099 122
� Authentic HAMANN HAND-BRAKE LEVER In aluminium For left- and right-hand drive cars Item No. : 80 099 216
� Authentic HAMANN Idrive of alu (sorry this is the only one in the World) but you can have it in carbon fiber ,
� Authentic HAMANN EXCLUSIVE FLOORMAT SET In black with HAMANN logo in silver For left-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 120 For right-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060
� Authentic HAMANN COVER FOR OIL FILLER CAP In aluminium Item-No.: 80 099 117
� Authentic HAMANN SPORT REAR MUFFLER 4 TAILPIPES Sport rear muffler with four round stainless-steel tailpipes ( � 76mm ) Item-No.: 50 060 111
� Authentic HAMANN new add-on for M pack rear with diffusor for quad pipes -AVAILABLE NOW (http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=30630&st=0#entry332409)
� ///M steering wheel w Pegasus logo (this will be also changed to three spoke sports)
� ///M pack rear
� HAMANN ECU upgrade 265 HP 608 Nm.
most improtant:
�real and working like a charm forumsbuy real LED tails and PIAA 4700k fogs!!! for HAMANN full front apron you need H3
� CustomAngels, Angel Eyes Brighter than stocks 10X, WHITE & (REd for shows).
� Authentic HAMANN LIGHT-ALLOY WHEELS DESIGN EDITION RACE 20"
Ultra-light forged 3-pieced light-alloy wheel, Cross-spoke-design,Spider in black, titanium, screwing,polished flange
DIMENSIONS : 9.0 J x 20 FA Item No.: 91 207 315
10.5 J x 20 only RA Item No.: 91 207 625
Recommended 20" Complete Wheel Set DESIGN EDITION RACE I went with most aggressive Combination A.10 FA 9.0 J x 20 / RA 10.5 J x 20 with tires: FA 245/30 ZR 20 / RA 285/25 ZR 20
� Authentic HAMANN LOWERING KIT 4 progressive sport springs Lowering by approx. 40 mm FA, 20 mm RA Item-No.: 20 060 125
� Authentic HAMANN TIRE - PRESSURE CHECK SENSOR SYSTEM
� Authentic HAMANN SIDE SILLS Item-No.: 10 060 120
� Authentic HAMANN REAL CF ROOF SPOLIER Item-No.: 10 060 235
� Authentic HAMANN AIRBAG SPORT STEERING WHEEL 3-SPOKE Three-spoke design w their SMG paddles (For assembly O.E. airbag in exchange)
� Authentic HAMANN sports mirrors (all functions)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
E60.net Clings
Still to do list;-):
� Our Hobi's camera system from : ww.switchchange.com).
� Individual leather interior (auburn+auburn alcantara)... and drive with sheer drivin' pleasure ... until 2009/2010 F10 comes or E60 possibly a 540d V8 diesel early in 2009 badly juiced!
OK here from now on: "JAPS" ha sno negative distinctive manner!!! No hard feelings!
So JAPS made a good decision:
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=12947
that is the best Japanese car ever saw!
So JAPS made a good decision:
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=12947
that is the best Japanese car ever saw!
09-27-2005, 01:22 PM
#40
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My Ride: MY05 545i Jet Black with Auburn interior. SMG, Logic7, Sport Package, Comfort Seats, Navigation.
Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Sep 27 2005, 01:33 PM
And I HATE everything in Germany with passion, seriously. I am more an American than a German... Just born in the wrong country...?
