Why BMW cannot get it right the first time?
09-26-2005, 09:22 PM
#21
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My Ride: 2005 530i (Silver-Gray, Gray Lthr., Anthracite Maple) with Steptronic, Prem. Pkg., Logic 7, Xenons & Chrome factory wheels.
In Japan, quality is a religion and is something that is practiced by ALL employees .... from the CEO to the janitor!
Deming, the "father" of quality control, worked with the Japanese many years ago and taught them how the use of quality control methods in their factories would not only improve product quality but also lower their production costs due to improved manufacturing tolerances (less scrap, etc.).
At the time, U.S. auto companies ignored Deming!
Unfortunately, Deming is no longer around to help the German manufacturers.
Martin
Deming, the "father" of quality control, worked with the Japanese many years ago and taught them how the use of quality control methods in their factories would not only improve product quality but also lower their production costs due to improved manufacturing tolerances (less scrap, etc.).
At the time, U.S. auto companies ignored Deming!
Unfortunately, Deming is no longer around to help the German manufacturers.
Martin
09-26-2005, 10:31 PM
#22
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My Ride: 535 D - to be delivered end Feb 2005 - color E08 - comfort seats - executive leather balck - 122 wheels - dynamic drive - active steering - pack luxe - tecnology pack - moon roof - 6CD player - hifi system - spare wheel - BT phone
I think that quality problems are coming from the bad management of subsuppliers. Due to the very high competition pressure (price and technic), manufacturers cannot follow the technical evolution on all topics (mostly electronics) and they focuss on what they believe to be they core business.
But now, they have nearly the engine and the body left. Evrything else has been subcontracted. And they do not master anymore more than 2/3 of the car value.
Toyota uses much more home made components.
But are'nt we also the cause to the lack of realiability of our cars. We want more and more gadgets. More you have subsystems in the car, the lower will be the realiability.
Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France) ranging from 5000 $ to 9000 $ (excl tax) for the top of the range. And against expectation, it has a tremendous success in France and Europe. It is a good deal, it is a good car (not at all undeveloped) but with a limited equipement and on top it is reliable.
But now, they have nearly the engine and the body left. Evrything else has been subcontracted. And they do not master anymore more than 2/3 of the car value.
Toyota uses much more home made components.
But are'nt we also the cause to the lack of realiability of our cars. We want more and more gadgets. More you have subsystems in the car, the lower will be the realiability.
Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France) ranging from 5000 $ to 9000 $ (excl tax) for the top of the range. And against expectation, it has a tremendous success in France and Europe. It is a good deal, it is a good car (not at all undeveloped) but with a limited equipement and on top it is reliable.
09-26-2005, 11:17 PM
#23
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My Ride: MY RIDE is DA real .-) HAMANN 5 aka BLACK MAMBA born on 16/06/2005/delivered on 05/08/2005 as following:
530dA (steptronic), Black II (JET), leather Dakota auburn black, mapple trim, head-up display, dynamic drive, active steering, adaptive xenon headlights (auto levelling) with headlight washers, alarm, comfort seats with massage function, advanced A/C, big compartment armrest, aux-in, MP3, Logic 7, Radio PRO, CD in-dash+cd changer, power rear sunshades, rear airbags, park distance control, auto dimming folding mirrors, smoking package, shiny shadow line (individual), fold down rear seats, ski bag, sport suspension, run flats on �116-style� rims (Good Year NCT5+), cup holders, debadged, fire extinguishers, additional permanent power outlet, BMW coat hanger, trunk release button (installed by Hobi), GPS tracking device and a big thx 2 Iceman.
Mods done:
� Authentic HAMANN FRONT APRON Including ellipsoid fog lights Item-No.: 10 060 110
� Authentic HAMANN REAR SPOILER Item-No.: 10 060 130,
� Authentic HAMANN HAMANN ALUMINIUM PEDALS For cars with manual gearbox Item-No.: 80 099 100 81,00 For cars with automatic transmission Item-No.: 80 099 120
� Authentic HAMANN FOOT REST In aluminium For left-hand drive vehicles Item No. : 80 099 122
� Authentic HAMANN HAND-BRAKE LEVER In aluminium For left- and right-hand drive cars Item No. : 80 099 216
� Authentic HAMANN Idrive of alu (sorry this is the only one in the World) but you can have it in carbon fiber ,
� Authentic HAMANN EXCLUSIVE FLOORMAT SET In black with HAMANN logo in silver For left-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 120 For right-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060
� Authentic HAMANN COVER FOR OIL FILLER CAP In aluminium Item-No.: 80 099 117
� Authentic HAMANN SPORT REAR MUFFLER 4 TAILPIPES Sport rear muffler with four round stainless-steel tailpipes ( � 76mm ) Item-No.: 50 060 111
� Authentic HAMANN new add-on for M pack rear with diffusor for quad pipes -AVAILABLE NOW (http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=30630&st=0#entry332409)
� ///M steering wheel w Pegasus logo (this will be also changed to three spoke sports)
� ///M pack rear
� HAMANN ECU upgrade 265 HP 608 Nm.
most improtant:
�real and working like a charm forumsbuy real LED tails and PIAA 4700k fogs!!! for HAMANN full front apron you need H3
� CustomAngels, Angel Eyes Brighter than stocks 10X, WHITE & (REd for shows).
� Authentic HAMANN LIGHT-ALLOY WHEELS DESIGN EDITION RACE 20"
Ultra-light forged 3-pieced light-alloy wheel, Cross-spoke-design,Spider in black, titanium, screwing,polished flange
DIMENSIONS : 9.0 J x 20 FA Item No.: 91 207 315
10.5 J x 20 only RA Item No.: 91 207 625
Recommended 20" Complete Wheel Set DESIGN EDITION RACE I went with most aggressive Combination A.10 FA 9.0 J x 20 / RA 10.5 J x 20 with tires: FA 245/30 ZR 20 / RA 285/25 ZR 20
� Authentic HAMANN LOWERING KIT 4 progressive sport springs Lowering by approx. 40 mm FA, 20 mm RA Item-No.: 20 060 125
� Authentic HAMANN TIRE - PRESSURE CHECK SENSOR SYSTEM
� Authentic HAMANN SIDE SILLS Item-No.: 10 060 120
� Authentic HAMANN REAL CF ROOF SPOLIER Item-No.: 10 060 235
� Authentic HAMANN AIRBAG SPORT STEERING WHEEL 3-SPOKE Three-spoke design w their SMG paddles (For assembly O.E. airbag in exchange)
� Authentic HAMANN sports mirrors (all functions)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
E60.net Clings
Still to do list;-):
� Our Hobi's camera system from : ww.switchchange.com).
� Individual leather interior (auburn+auburn alcantara)... and drive with sheer drivin' pleasure ... until 2009/2010 F10 comes or E60 possibly a 540d V8 diesel early in 2009 badly juiced!
DIFFERENT Continent DIFFERENT Market! diff people
we cud go for teh newest Lexus and yes there was a point when I liked Lexus but now when I blast
them German car and e60 is the BEST 
we cud go for teh newest Lexus and yes there was a point when I liked Lexus but now when I blast
them German car and e60 is the BEST
09-26-2005, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FJPM' date='Sep 27 2005, 01:31 AM
I think that quality problems are coming from the bad management of subsuppliers. Due to the very high competition pressure (price and technic), manufacturers cannot follow the technical evolution on all topics (mostly electronics) and they focuss on what they believe to be they core business.
But now, they have nearly the engine and the body left. Evrything else has been subcontracted. And they do not master anymore more than 2/3 of the car value.
Toyota uses much more home made components.
But are'nt we also the cause to the lack of realiability of our cars. We want more and more gadgets. More you have subsystems in the car, the lower will be the realiability.
Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France) ranging from 5000 $ to 9000 $ (excl tax) for the top of the range. And against expectation, it has a tremendous success in France and Europe. It is a good deal, it is a good car (not at all undeveloped) but with a limited equipement and on top it is reliable.
But now, they have nearly the engine and the body left. Evrything else has been subcontracted. And they do not master anymore more than 2/3 of the car value.
Toyota uses much more home made components.
But are'nt we also the cause to the lack of realiability of our cars. We want more and more gadgets. More you have subsystems in the car, the lower will be the realiability.
Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France) ranging from 5000 $ to 9000 $ (excl tax) for the top of the range. And against expectation, it has a tremendous success in France and Europe. It is a good deal, it is a good car (not at all undeveloped) but with a limited equipement and on top it is reliable.
[snapback]175579[/snapback]
I agree! 100%...try not to overwhelm ur car with electornic stuff...maybe that's why i trust more mechanical than electronic. Get AS and DD and ACC and AL and PRO NAV and ....welll...for sure the percentage of smth going wrong will rise exponentially.
"Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France)"
Hey! Don't thank Romania...thank Renault because it was their intention first to buy the car plant in Romania and it was their plan to get the model and sell it over Europe. Renault is 100% responable.
09-26-2005, 11:23 PM
#25
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My Ride: MY RIDE is DA real .-) HAMANN 5 aka BLACK MAMBA born on 16/06/2005/delivered on 05/08/2005 as following:
530dA (steptronic), Black II (JET), leather Dakota auburn black, mapple trim, head-up display, dynamic drive, active steering, adaptive xenon headlights (auto levelling) with headlight washers, alarm, comfort seats with massage function, advanced A/C, big compartment armrest, aux-in, MP3, Logic 7, Radio PRO, CD in-dash+cd changer, power rear sunshades, rear airbags, park distance control, auto dimming folding mirrors, smoking package, shiny shadow line (individual), fold down rear seats, ski bag, sport suspension, run flats on �116-style� rims (Good Year NCT5+), cup holders, debadged, fire extinguishers, additional permanent power outlet, BMW coat hanger, trunk release button (installed by Hobi), GPS tracking device and a big thx 2 Iceman.
Mods done:
� Authentic HAMANN FRONT APRON Including ellipsoid fog lights Item-No.: 10 060 110
� Authentic HAMANN REAR SPOILER Item-No.: 10 060 130,
� Authentic HAMANN HAMANN ALUMINIUM PEDALS For cars with manual gearbox Item-No.: 80 099 100 81,00 For cars with automatic transmission Item-No.: 80 099 120
� Authentic HAMANN FOOT REST In aluminium For left-hand drive vehicles Item No. : 80 099 122
� Authentic HAMANN HAND-BRAKE LEVER In aluminium For left- and right-hand drive cars Item No. : 80 099 216
� Authentic HAMANN Idrive of alu (sorry this is the only one in the World) but you can have it in carbon fiber ,
� Authentic HAMANN EXCLUSIVE FLOORMAT SET In black with HAMANN logo in silver For left-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 120 For right-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060
� Authentic HAMANN COVER FOR OIL FILLER CAP In aluminium Item-No.: 80 099 117
� Authentic HAMANN SPORT REAR MUFFLER 4 TAILPIPES Sport rear muffler with four round stainless-steel tailpipes ( � 76mm ) Item-No.: 50 060 111
� Authentic HAMANN new add-on for M pack rear with diffusor for quad pipes -AVAILABLE NOW (http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=30630&st=0#entry332409)
� ///M steering wheel w Pegasus logo (this will be also changed to three spoke sports)
� ///M pack rear
� HAMANN ECU upgrade 265 HP 608 Nm.
most improtant:
�real and working like a charm forumsbuy real LED tails and PIAA 4700k fogs!!! for HAMANN full front apron you need H3
� CustomAngels, Angel Eyes Brighter than stocks 10X, WHITE & (REd for shows).
� Authentic HAMANN LIGHT-ALLOY WHEELS DESIGN EDITION RACE 20"
Ultra-light forged 3-pieced light-alloy wheel, Cross-spoke-design,Spider in black, titanium, screwing,polished flange
DIMENSIONS : 9.0 J x 20 FA Item No.: 91 207 315
10.5 J x 20 only RA Item No.: 91 207 625
Recommended 20" Complete Wheel Set DESIGN EDITION RACE I went with most aggressive Combination A.10 FA 9.0 J x 20 / RA 10.5 J x 20 with tires: FA 245/30 ZR 20 / RA 285/25 ZR 20
� Authentic HAMANN LOWERING KIT 4 progressive sport springs Lowering by approx. 40 mm FA, 20 mm RA Item-No.: 20 060 125
� Authentic HAMANN TIRE - PRESSURE CHECK SENSOR SYSTEM
� Authentic HAMANN SIDE SILLS Item-No.: 10 060 120
� Authentic HAMANN REAL CF ROOF SPOLIER Item-No.: 10 060 235
� Authentic HAMANN AIRBAG SPORT STEERING WHEEL 3-SPOKE Three-spoke design w their SMG paddles (For assembly O.E. airbag in exchange)
� Authentic HAMANN sports mirrors (all functions)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
E60.net Clings
Still to do list;-):
� Our Hobi's camera system from : ww.switchchange.com).
� Individual leather interior (auburn+auburn alcantara)... and drive with sheer drivin' pleasure ... until 2009/2010 F10 comes or E60 possibly a 540d V8 diesel early in 2009 badly juiced!
Exactly my Friend,
if we take out all stuff from Bosch and other electronics-ok than also some engine controllers wud not work but nothing cud go wrong in a BMW.
Anyway all cars can have problems, I knew it when I went to buy mine that there might be and it is annoying but it is simple:
you want it, you buy it and drive it or NOt..
I took the plunge and do not care for problems that is why my service guys in the Dealership are there not me , so far none... hope it stays like that.
If I get ***** drain battery message and the car still boosts who cares??
"But are'nt we also the cause to the lack of realiability of our cars. We want more and more gadgets. More you have subsystems in the car, the lower will be the realiability."
I agree! 100%...try not to overwhelm ur car with electornic stuff...maybe that's why i trust more mechanical than electronic. Get AS and DD and ACC and AL and PRO NAV and ....welll...for sure the percentage of smth going wrong will rise exponentially.
"Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France)"
Hey! Don't thank Romania...thank Renault because it was their intention first to buy the car plant in Romania and it was their plan to get the model and sell it over Europe. Renault is 100% responable.
if we take out all stuff from Bosch and other electronics-ok than also some engine controllers wud not work but nothing cud go wrong in a BMW.
Anyway all cars can have problems, I knew it when I went to buy mine that there might be and it is annoying but it is simple:
you want it, you buy it and drive it or NOt..
I took the plunge and do not care for problems that is why my service guys in the Dealership are there not me , so far none... hope it stays like that.
If I get ***** drain battery message and the car still boosts who cares??
Originally Posted by BetterMakeWay' date='Sep 27 2005, 08:18 AM
[quote name='FJPM' date='Sep 27 2005, 01:31 AM']I think that quality problems are coming from the bad management of subsuppliers. Due to the very high competition pressure (price and technic), manufacturers cannot follow the technical evolution on all topics (mostly electronics) and they focuss on what they believe to be they core business.
But now, they have nearly the engine and the body left. Evrything else has been subcontracted. And they do not master anymore more than 2/3 of the car value.
Toyota uses much more home made components.
But are'nt we also the cause to the lack of realiability of our cars. We want more and more gadgets. More you have subsystems in the car, the lower will be the realiability.
Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France) ranging from 5000 $ to 9000 $ (excl tax) for the top of the range. And against expectation, it has a tremendous success in France and Europe. It is a good deal, it is a good car (not at all undeveloped) but with a limited equipement and on top it is reliable.
But now, they have nearly the engine and the body left. Evrything else has been subcontracted. And they do not master anymore more than 2/3 of the car value.
Toyota uses much more home made components.
But are'nt we also the cause to the lack of realiability of our cars. We want more and more gadgets. More you have subsystems in the car, the lower will be the realiability.
Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France) ranging from 5000 $ to 9000 $ (excl tax) for the top of the range. And against expectation, it has a tremendous success in France and Europe. It is a good deal, it is a good car (not at all undeveloped) but with a limited equipement and on top it is reliable.
[snapback]175579[/snapback]
I agree! 100%...try not to overwhelm ur car with electornic stuff...maybe that's why i trust more mechanical than electronic. Get AS and DD and ACC and AL and PRO NAV and ....welll...for sure the percentage of smth going wrong will rise exponentially.
"Sorry for this French example: but Renault just issued the Logan a compact sedan made in Romania (thank you for the unemployment in France)"
Hey! Don't thank Romania...thank Renault because it was their intention first to buy the car plant in Romania and it was their plan to get the model and sell it over Europe. Renault is 100% responable.
[snapback]175598[/snapback]
[/quote]
09-26-2005, 11:35 PM
#26
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My Ride: 523iA, 2006, Silver Grey, Black Leatherette Interior, Fine-Wood Trim Poplar Grain Brown High-Gloss, 6 Speed Automatic Transmission with Steptronic, Automatic Air Conditioning with Extended Content, Interior and Exterior Mirrors with Automatic Anti-Dazzle Function (Incl. Folding Function for Exterior Mirror), Electric Front Seats with Memory for Driver, Multi-Function Steering Wheel with Cruise Control, Adjustable Steering Column, BMW Radio with 8 Speakers and CD Drive, Park Distance Control, Universal Bluetooth Cell Phone, Electric Rear Sunblind
Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Sep 27 2005, 01:32 AM
Well, the Japs only get it right, because they wait until we have solved the problems, and then they copy the system. They are never at the same level, allways behind.
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
[snapback]175362[/snapback]
Deming invented total quality management and was laughed at by his American peers, the Japs welcomed him and applied his techniques to end up having higher quality products than the Americans.
Ishikawa invented quality circles, where certain employees and workers are chosen to form a group that will observe the quality of a certain process, product or service and make sure that it meets the required standards. Ishikawa also invented the Ishikawa diagram (cause and effect diagram), which is also a great quality mangement tool.
Other quality gurus from Japan include Taguchi, who came out with the quality los function, which specified the cost you will need to provide certain quality standards, and the cost you will need to cover the problems that are going to arise if you don't meet those quality standards (he is a very smart guy).
There is also Shingo, which I don't remember what he did exactly (something realted to Zero Quality Control), but he added a lot to TQM.
Toyota Motors was one of the first company's in the car manufacturing world to apply total quality management techniques, I've even studied a book named "Toyota Quality Management"
. They now apply continuos supply chain which means that they don't stock car components, they just install parts coming from suppliers directly onto their cars (unbelievable). They have reached a tremendous level of control on their suppliers product quality and planning and scheduling for the number of needed parts so that they don't stock componenets.Sorry for a boring post, but just wanted to show that out of 8 Total Quality Management Gurus (Deming, Crosby, Feigenbaum, Garvin, Ishikawa, Taguchi, Shingo, and Juran) 3 were Japs and 4 operated primarily in Japan. That is why most of the Japanese products are of great quality
, not because they are reluctant to use new technology.
09-26-2005, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Shebs' date='Sep 27 2005, 02:35 AM
[quote name='Iceman' date='Sep 27 2005, 01:32 AM']Well, the Japs only get it right, because they wait until we have solved the problems, and then they copy the system. They are never at the same level, allways behind.
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
If they would make the invention and BMW waits two years to bring the feature out, the problems would've been solved in Japan by this time and they would have had the trouble in JP...?
[snapback]175362[/snapback]
Deming invented total quality management and was laughed at by his American peers, the Japs welcomed him and applied his techniques to end up having higher quality products than the Americans.
Ishikawa invented quality circles, where certain employees and workers are chosen to form a group that will observe the quality of a certain process, product or service and make sure that it meets the required standards. Ishikawa also invented the Ishikawa diagram (cause and effect diagram), which is also a great quality mangement tool.
Other quality gurus from Japan include Taguchi, who came out with the quality los function, which specified the cost you will need to provide certain quality standards, and the cost you will need to cover the problems that are going to arise if you don't meet those quality standards (he is a very smart guy).
There is also Shingo, which I don't remember what he did exactly (something realted to Zero Quality Control), but he added a lot to TQM.
Toyota Motors was one of the first company's in the car manufacturing world to apply total quality management techniques, I've even studied a book named "Toyota Quality Management"
. They now apply continuos supply chain which means that they don't stock car components, they just install parts coming from suppliers directly onto their cars (unbelievable). They have reached a tremendous level of control on their suppliers product quality and planning and scheduling for the number of needed parts so that they don't stock componenets.Sorry for a boring post, but just wanted to show that out of 8 Total Quality Management Gurus (Deming, Crosby, Feigenbaum, Garvin, Ishikawa, Taguchi, Shingo, and Juran) 3 were Japs and 4 operated primarily in Japan. That is why most of the Japanese products are of great quality
, not because they are reluctant to use new technology.[snapback]175606[/snapback]
[/quote]Very interesting post...not boring at all!
Looks someone did his homework on management/economics.
09-27-2005, 12:15 AM
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I have to say that I disagree that Japanese is in any way "borrowed" and thus more reliable. Having worked in business with many nationalities in my experience the Japanese are both detail orientated and rigourous in the process of identifying, acting on and solving quality issues. Of course "quality" is one of those tags that every company throws around liberally and every company, of course has a "quality program". It's just in my experience the Japanese really do put this at the centre of their manufacturing and development.
I think BMW has always been pretty strong in the quality stakes but I think the high tech has slightly run away with them in our beloved E60 Almost as though in the rush to get the E60 out the door marketing took over took good engineering sense.
I think BMW has always been pretty strong in the quality stakes but I think the high tech has slightly run away with them in our beloved E60
Almost as though in the rush to get the E60 out the door marketing took over took good engineering sense.
09-27-2005, 05:10 AM
#29
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My Ride: 2006 530i Sport
Silver Gray - Black Leather - Anthracite Maple
Manual Transmission
Premium Audio
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Rear sunshade
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Autobahnd Roadblock (3M) film kit
Originally Posted by MTRHEAD' date='Sep 27 2005, 03:15 AM
I have to say that I disagree that Japanese is in any way "borrowed" and thus more reliable. Having worked in business with many nationalities in my experience the Japanese are both detail orientated and rigourous in the process of identifying, acting on and solving quality issues. Of course "quality" is one of those tags that every company throws around liberally and every company, of course has a "quality program". It's just in my experience the Japanese really do put this at the centre of their manufacturing and development.
I think BMW has always been pretty strong in the quality stakes but I think the high tech has slightly run away with them in our beloved E60 Almost as though in the rush to get the E60 out the door marketing took over took good engineering sense.
I think BMW has always been pretty strong in the quality stakes but I think the high tech has slightly run away with them in our beloved E60
Almost as though in the rush to get the E60 out the door marketing took over took good engineering sense.[snapback]175618[/snapback]
Initial quality is superb as of the last JD Powers and Associates survey. BMW was third, led only by Jaguar (LOL), and Lexus. Who knows? 2006 may bring even more improvement. BMW had jumped from 12th to 3rd from 2004 to 2005.
I think a lot of the items we cite are software code or low-tech things like rubber seals or tires. We need to remember that these cars we drive are deceptively complex. I'm suprised they work at all to be honest, let alone as well as they do. 70 computer systems, 7 different operating systems. At least we're not stuck with a snapshot and can benefit from improvements as they are released.
09-27-2005, 05:55 AM
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My Ride: 535 D - to be delivered end Feb 2005 - color E08 - comfort seats - executive leather balck - 122 wheels - dynamic drive - active steering - pack luxe - tecnology pack - moon roof - 6CD player - hifi system - spare wheel - BT phone
Having and E60 built in early 2005 which means not one of the very first I have to agre that for such a complex car, the quality is very high especially compaired my former W211 E500 Mercedes which was a real crap (2 months at the dealership in 2 1/2 year and 70000 km)....