Yaya Inceman. Suuuuure as you say.

The thing that strikes me is that you or anyother hardcore ferrari fan shut up when Michael S. aka the red baron was 99% of the time " team player" as you said. How many drivers sat in MS shadow and had to bow to him anytime he wanted or Jean Todd wanted?! Remember that brake in the final turn-straight in that race when MS won the race because his team player broke hard in the last couple of meters. What a stirr was that. Nope no team orders there and no Ferrari dirty stuff. Team players :lol:

I can't say more on this issue...as i said in my post.

Our friend bettermake is forgetting who had 780pages of the other team car :D
BTW he is so accustomed to illegal things that he can't accept a legal overtaken on track :lol:

Okay, here's my 2 cents. Kimi and Ferrari deserve the Championship and won it in typical Ferrari fashion; they remained professional, focused and never lost sight of the goal. Even when it looked like they were out of it in mid-season. Well done, Kimi. Well done, Ferrari.

Mclaren (read Dennis) made some mistakes and I don't mean Stepney-Gate. After enticing Alonso, a twice world champion, to McLaren with promises of being number 1 driver, he clearly favored Hamilton for most of the season. I can see why Alonso felt betrayed by the team and Ron Dennis in particular. So I take a kinder view of Alonso's attitude. I see him as being a victim of typical McLaren team politics.

Hamilton is a real talent but perhaps not as great as many think. It certainly didn't hurt that he stepped into arguably the best car on the grid, or that he was Ron Dennis' favorite. Put Hamilton in a Spyker and he would be an also ran. No knock on his talent, just reality. I also think that he handled himself very well during the season. It would have been easy for him to become a legend in his own mind but he seemed to me to keep his cool. He always thanked the team and others for his success. I think he is a class act and has a terriffic future. As long as Dennis does not find another new best hope.

I hope Nico does not go to McLaren. He will run into the same situation that Alsonso is trying to escape. There is always a number 1 at McLaren and it will be Hamilton for some time. The second driver is, well, the second driver. Just ask DC. He was allowed to win a few races but spent his best years playing second fiddle to Mika. If Nico leaves Williams, I would love to see him at BMW.

Finally, a few words about team orders. In a well run team they are not necessary. Everyone, including the drivers understand their role. No one had to tell Massa what to do on Sunday. He knew the situation and knew he was there to help Kimi. In that situation, if Todt had to signal Massa with pit board or radio, they really have a stupid driver. And Massa is not stupid. Come on, no one had to tell Felipe what to do. I also think team strategy, call them team orders if you want, add to the sport rather than distract form it. It adds another element of "what if" during the race. Its supposed to be fun, right?

i tell you ok. so you know that these are all management (& team) decisions... and we can all see what happened, when alonso went to mclaren expecting the schumacher position, and didnt get it.. soon when the no. 1 status went to hamilton at mclaren, things just got worse. and they lost both championships. and you know what, if at any of the previous races management handled the situation better one of them let the other win, instead of crashing into each other, one of them would be champion,,, shows how much F1 is a team sport that requires the entire team support & scarafice..
perfect example.. i think it was the chinese GP and it was raining.. massa was close to the front, but his championship battle was over, he went into his last pit, it was just about to rain, ferrari put dry tires on his car he lost something like 3 seconds per lap, but he helped decide KIMI's strategy. im sure nether of the mclaren drivers would ever do that for his team mate, end result.. (they both LOST)..even when eddie irvine had a shot at the championship schumi was willing to help..

Again you are comparing apples and oranges.

Those days are over! Rules have changed!

You know who the one is that should STFU, right?


I am not a Ferrari fan, I am not a MS fan, I am not even a F1 fan.
The only realtion I have with F1 is, I know a lot of people that work in F1, because I have been working with them in the past.

...yup, that was the race in austria 2002, where schumi "abused" the team play big time. no need for him to overtake barrichello in the last corner that early in the championship that he was leading anyway...

Very well said and put. I agree with you. But when i talk about team orders and the particular case in the last race with Ferrari, i refere more to the fundamental ideologic issue. I'm not saying someone "falgged" Massa to let Kimi pass. Nobody does that and i think nobody really did it in front of everyone to see. For example Ferrary employee comming out with the grid line sayin "let Kimi pass". It's absurd. Stuff like this is not done in this manner, nor it is in any type of radio or similar communication method.

Let me put it in another perspective, I think Massa wanted to win the Brazilian race, his home gp. And i also think he could very well win it, easily. Let's just say that only a mechanical failure could have stopped him, knowing what he can do as a driver, how the car ran in that GP and the pace he had. But he had to let Kimi pass, be it out of his own will or from various factos, as for sure if he would have passed that line in the 1st place from ego or stubborness orwhatever he would have had major problems with Ferrari and for sure his place in the team would have been blown away.

Did Massa deserve to win?
YES
Would he wanted to win in his home GP?
YES
Then why didn't he?
Uncertain but higly speculative.
Team orders?
Highly likely but cannot be proved as Ferrari made sure all is smooth.

Congrats to Ferrari?
In a way! Congrats for being smart to take advantage of the Mclaren mess but BUHUUU for pulling off another "Red Baron" trick.

Tell me where i'm wrong please.

BetterMakeWay, you are not wrong and I do not disagree with you. My point is that the debate over team orders seems somewhat silly. I think team orders should be part of F1. They always have been and I think they add to the fun. (Fangio won the title in 1956 when his teammate Collins was ordered to pit and turn over his car after Fangio had broken! Also Ferrari by the way.) Team orders are yet another element to the total team strategy.

Also, no one goes into F1 with closed eyes. When Massa signed his contract and accepted Ferrari money, he knew perfectly well what was expected of a Ferrari team driver.

So, to answer your questions another way -
Did Massa deserve to win?
PROBABLY
Would he have wanted to win his home GP?
YES
Then why didn't he?
Because Massa knew it was better for the team, and ultimately for him as well, that Kimi win.

How long would Massa last at Ferrari if he had pressed on for the win and kept another Ferrari driver from winning the Championship? Can you imagine the uproar from the Italian press? It would not have been safe for Massa to show his face in Italy.

Comments?

You say that if Massa would have won the race he would have been in trouble with his team. CORRECT.
Why? Because it's a team sport, where the constructer (team) gets points, money and a championship title.

Then you ask why he didn't win?
Boy... You have allready given the answer... and now you are pulling the "fu** Ferrari" attitude again.
There is no need for a team order!!
He knew his position. He wanted to save his job. That's a decisiion by him, not the team.
They didn't need to pull "another red baron trick".
And this is just as in any other job!




Yep. Correct.

If Massa wanted any chance of driving for Ferrari next year, he had to follow the teams plan (team orders).

Everyone knows he could have won that race, first 3/4 of the race he was consistently faster than Kimi in lap times. But the way they handled it did not violate any team orders rule.