all the money i was gonna spend on mods to my car
03-23-2010, 03:27 AM
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I think you should go back and actually read those cases before you decide not to pay your taxes.
In Peck, the Supreme Court held:
"If articles manufactured and intended for export are subject to taxation under general laws up to the time they are put in course of exportation, as we have seen they are, the conclusion is unavoidable that the net income from the venture when completed -- that is to say, after the exportation and sale are fully consummated -- is likewise subject to taxation under general laws. In that respect, the status of the income is not different from that of the exported articles prior to the exportation. For these reasons, we hold that the objection urged against the tax is not well grounded."
In other words, the company had to pay its taxes.
And Coppage had nothing to do with taxation, but rather reconciling the right of association with the right to contract in the context of labor unions.
As others have said, efforts to avoid taxation have universally failed.
In Peck, the Supreme Court held:
"If articles manufactured and intended for export are subject to taxation under general laws up to the time they are put in course of exportation, as we have seen they are, the conclusion is unavoidable that the net income from the venture when completed -- that is to say, after the exportation and sale are fully consummated -- is likewise subject to taxation under general laws. In that respect, the status of the income is not different from that of the exported articles prior to the exportation. For these reasons, we hold that the objection urged against the tax is not well grounded."
In other words, the company had to pay its taxes.
And Coppage had nothing to do with taxation, but rather reconciling the right of association with the right to contract in the context of labor unions.
As others have said, efforts to avoid taxation have universally failed.
03-23-2010, 04:07 AM
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March 2009 NYT article on the subject. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/ma...s&st=cse&scp=2
Now start explaining how the NYT is a leftist rag that cannot be trusted. Maybe Fox news did a story on successful tax dodgers you can point us to?
03-23-2010, 04:11 AM
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Though I know I am in the minority here on 5series.net and even though I personally won't benefit from the bill in the short-term, I believe that this was long overdue. I believe that having tens of millions of our countrymen without any health care was immoral, wrong and reflected poorly on our country. The rich and well-off will still be able to go to whatever doctor they want. And the poor will continue to received Medicaid.
But this legislation will restore healthcare to tens of millions of middle class Americans, including millions of children, who cannot afford it in today's broken system. No longer will Americans be denied health insurance because of a pre-existing condition or have their health insurance cancelled because they got sick.
The same catcalls and accusations of socialism or even Stalinism were also hurled at the proponents of the Medicare bill when it became law in the 1960s. And guess what? Our country did not end, liberty was not existinguished and tens of millions of elderly Americans were able to have health insurance. I believe that 20 years from now, when people look back on this moment, far more Americans will admire that President Obama stood fast and stood up for what he believed was the right thing for the country and accomplished something that decades of prior Presidents could not do -- regardless of the short-term political cost. I see this as a profile in courage.
While I wholly disagree with this process, I can agree that that goal is nobel. However, this President and the process are a fraud. The fact is the ends don't justify the means, and this bill in its current form will bankrupt the govt. No where ever has there been any actual discussion on how you add 32,000,000 new individuals to our current systems infrastructure. No one is talking about building 1,000 new hospitals or offering assisstance for medical school programs to get the 10s of thousand of new heath care professionals ready in the next 4 years. Not one piece of lagislation came forth to curb the defensive medecine that are driving us to the brink of destruction...why? Well because its a shell game and this is merely politics. There was not immenent rush neeeded to do this reform. Never in our histoey as one party that represents perhaps 20% of the population been so brazen to force their way upon the country. This was supposed to be a joint effort between the govt and the people, and yet a very few behind closed doors made all of the decisions. And please don't give us talking points about this being the "way" Washington works and that bribery is the norm. That's bs, plain and simple. If the bill stood on the merits of providing universal health coverage and reducing long term costs to lead to a better counrty for all, there would never had needed to be a single sleazy deal or kickback, or what we call outside of Washington, bribery. This was not the case, the Pres could not get his own party to agree for more than a year in the process of creating the bill because it was so bad. And now we all will pay in some way or another. We'll have less doctors, less opportunity and much higher taxes. In case anyone wasn't aware of some of the finer points, the govt is also taking over the Student Loan business...what's that you say?what does the student laon biz have to do with health care? Well nothing except the gove say it as a money maker, so to all the students out there, your Pres has found a way to use your tuition loan interest to pay for part of the bill! Yes its true, they will still carge you the same rates as private for profit banks, but the interest you pay will not be reduced even though the govts rates should be cheaper, you pay for someones healthcare subsidity. Oh yeah, one exception, of as we say bribe, a single bank in Nebraska is allowed to be the only bank in the country to still be able to service student loans, the President really needed those Nebraska votes!
The ends don't justify the means, and this is a failure that will be argued and campaigneon for the next 3 years, first to kick out congress, then to get a president who can fix this mess.
Let the games begin
03-23-2010, 04:11 AM
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Though I know I am in the minority here on 5series.net and even though I personally won't benefit from the bill in the short-term, I believe that this was long overdue. I believe that having tens of millions of our countrymen without any health care was immoral, wrong and reflected poorly on our country. The rich and well-off will still be able to go to whatever doctor they want. And the poor will continue to received Medicaid.
But this legislation will restore healthcare to tens of millions of middle class Americans, including millions of children, who cannot afford it in today's broken system. No longer will Americans be denied health insurance because of a pre-existing condition or have their health insurance cancelled because they got sick.
The same catcalls and accusations of socialism or even Stalinism were also hurled at the proponents of the Medicare bill when it became law in the 1960s. And guess what? Our country did not end, liberty was not existinguished and tens of millions of elderly Americans were able to have health insurance. I believe that 20 years from now, when people look back on this moment, far more Americans will admire that President Obama stood fast and stood up for what he believed was the right thing for the country and accomplished something that decades of prior Presidents could not do -- regardless of the short-term political cost. I see this as a profile in courage.
While I wholly disagree with this process, I can agree that that goal is nobel. However, this President and the process are a fraud. The fact is the ends don't justify the means, and this bill in its current form will bankrupt the govt. No where ever has there been any actual discussion on how you add 32,000,000 new individuals to our current systems infrastructure. No one is talking about building 1,000 new hospitals or offering assistance for medical school programs to get the 10s of thousand of new heath care professionals ready in the next 4 years. Not one piece of legislation came forth to curb the defensive medecine that are driving us to the brink of destruction...why? Well because its a shell game and this is merely politics. There was not an immenent rush needed to do this reform. Never in our history has one party that represents perhaps 20% of the population been so brazen to force their way upon the country. This was supposed to be a joint effort between the govt and the people, and yet a very few behind closed doors made all of the decisions. And please don't give us talking points about this being the "way" Washington works and that bribery is the norm. That's bs, plain and simple. If the bill stood on the merits of providing universal health coverage and reducing long term costs to lead to a better country for all, there would never had needed to be a single sleazy deal or kickback, or what we call outside of Washington, bribery. This was not the case, the Pres could not get his own party to agree for more than a year in the process of creating the bill because it was so bad. And now we all will pay in some way or another. We'll have less doctors, less opportunity and much higher taxes. In case anyone wasn't aware of some of the finer points, the govt is also taking over the Student Loan business...what's that you say?what does the student loan biz have to do with health care? Well nothing except the govt sees it as a money maker, so to all the students out there, your Pres has found a way to use your tuition loan interest to pay for part of the bill! Yes its true, they will still charge you the same rates as private for profit banks, but the interest you pay will not be reduced even though the govts rates should be cheaper, you pay for someones healthcare subsidity. Oh yeah, one exception, or as we say bribe, a single bank in Nebraska is allowed to be the only bank in the country to still be able to service student loans, the President really needed those Nebraska votes!
The ends don't justify the means, and this is a failure that will be argued and campaigned on for the next 3 years, first to kick out congress, then to get a president who can fix this mess.
Let the games begin
03-23-2010, 05:01 AM
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As I asked you many posts ago, show us settled case law where the defendant a) prevailed with the specific arguments that you postulated and b) managed to avoid paying any tax other than sales tax as a consequence. The two you've posted so far do nothing of the sort - and taking a sentence or two out of context (in a case where the taxpayers lost anyway) isn't going to cut it.
Show us a case where the 16th Amendment argument has prevailed and created authority and precedent. Show us a case which confirms that there is no basis for the federal income tax thus making its payment "voluntary". More to the point, do make sure these are Supreme Court cases, as you've already told us that the Supreme Court is in full agreement with your position.
03-23-2010, 05:25 AM
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Not regaring you personally but...
While I wholly disagree with this process, I can agree that that goal is nobel. However, this President and the process are a fraud. The fact is the ends don't justify the means, and this bill in its current form will bankrupt the govt. No where ever has there been any actual discussion on how you add 32,000,000 new individuals to our current systems infrastructure. No one is talking about building 1,000 new hospitals or offering assistance for medical school programs to get the 10s of thousand of new heath care professionals ready in the next 4 years. Not one piece of legislation came forth to curb the defensive medecine that are driving us to the brink of destruction...why? Well because its a shell game and this is merely politics. There was not an immenent rush needed to do this reform. Never in our history has one party that represents perhaps 20% of the population been so brazen to force their way upon the country. This was supposed to be a joint effort between the govt and the people, and yet a very few behind closed doors made all of the decisions. And please don't give us talking points about this being the "way" Washington works and that bribery is the norm. That's bs, plain and simple. If the bill stood on the merits of providing universal health coverage and reducing long term costs to lead to a better country for all, there would never had needed to be a single sleazy deal or kickback, or what we call outside of Washington, bribery. This was not the case, the Pres could not get his own party to agree for more than a year in the process of creating the bill because it was so bad. And now we all will pay in some way or another. We'll have less doctors, less opportunity and much higher taxes. In case anyone wasn't aware of some of the finer points, the govt is also taking over the Student Loan business...what's that you say?what does the student loan biz have to do with health care? Well nothing except the govt sees it as a money maker, so to all the students out there, your Pres has found a way to use your tuition loan interest to pay for part of the bill! Yes its true, they will still charge you the same rates as private for profit banks, but the interest you pay will not be reduced even though the govts rates should be cheaper, you pay for someones healthcare subsidity. Oh yeah, one exception, or as we say bribe, a single bank in Nebraska is allowed to be the only bank in the country to still be able to service student loans, the President really needed those Nebraska votes!
The ends don't justify the means, and this is a failure that will be argued and campaigned on for the next 3 years, first to kick out congress, then to get a president who can fix this mess.
Let the games begin
While I wholly disagree with this process, I can agree that that goal is nobel. However, this President and the process are a fraud. The fact is the ends don't justify the means, and this bill in its current form will bankrupt the govt. No where ever has there been any actual discussion on how you add 32,000,000 new individuals to our current systems infrastructure. No one is talking about building 1,000 new hospitals or offering assistance for medical school programs to get the 10s of thousand of new heath care professionals ready in the next 4 years. Not one piece of legislation came forth to curb the defensive medecine that are driving us to the brink of destruction...why? Well because its a shell game and this is merely politics. There was not an immenent rush needed to do this reform. Never in our history has one party that represents perhaps 20% of the population been so brazen to force their way upon the country. This was supposed to be a joint effort between the govt and the people, and yet a very few behind closed doors made all of the decisions. And please don't give us talking points about this being the "way" Washington works and that bribery is the norm. That's bs, plain and simple. If the bill stood on the merits of providing universal health coverage and reducing long term costs to lead to a better country for all, there would never had needed to be a single sleazy deal or kickback, or what we call outside of Washington, bribery. This was not the case, the Pres could not get his own party to agree for more than a year in the process of creating the bill because it was so bad. And now we all will pay in some way or another. We'll have less doctors, less opportunity and much higher taxes. In case anyone wasn't aware of some of the finer points, the govt is also taking over the Student Loan business...what's that you say?what does the student loan biz have to do with health care? Well nothing except the govt sees it as a money maker, so to all the students out there, your Pres has found a way to use your tuition loan interest to pay for part of the bill! Yes its true, they will still charge you the same rates as private for profit banks, but the interest you pay will not be reduced even though the govts rates should be cheaper, you pay for someones healthcare subsidity. Oh yeah, one exception, or as we say bribe, a single bank in Nebraska is allowed to be the only bank in the country to still be able to service student loans, the President really needed those Nebraska votes!
The ends don't justify the means, and this is a failure that will be argued and campaigned on for the next 3 years, first to kick out congress, then to get a president who can fix this mess.
Let the games begin
I agree that if the election were held today, the Dems would suffer a punishing defeat. The right has spent massive amounts of money scaring the public into believing that this is a Stalinist takeover of private health insurance when, of course it is not. There is no public option at all in this bill. But, of course, it is a lot easier to scare the public and tear down than it is to build up.
But I think that when the scaremongering dies down and people realize that they will no longer be denied health insurance due to preexisting conditions and that they can keep their children on their health plan up until 26 (just by way of example) and when they can actually buy a health insurance plan that they can afford where before they had none, they will appreciate that this bill is a landmark achievement, just as Medicare was in the mid-1960s.
Personally, I look forward to the political fights ahead as Republicans try to leverage this legislation to springboard back into control of Congress. At least the debate will be over issues and not which member of Congress is having a sexual relationship that maybe they shouldn't be having.
The bill certainly disproves the cynical argument by some that the major political parties are interchangable. They are not. They each stand for different things. And each has honorable and sincerely held beliefs about where our country should be going and how our government should be run.
03-23-2010, 06:06 AM
#47
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Not regaring you personally but...
While I wholly disagree with this process, I can agree that that goal is nobel. However, this President and the process are a fraud. The fact is the ends don't justify the means, and this bill in its current form will bankrupt the govt. No where ever has there been any actual discussion on how you add 32,000,000 new individuals to our current systems infrastructure. No one is talking about building 1,000 new hospitals or offering assisstance for medical school programs to get the 10s of thousand of new heath care professionals ready in the next 4 years. Not one piece of lagislation came forth to curb the defensive medecine that are driving us to the brink of destruction...why? Well because its a shell game and this is merely politics. There was not immenent rush neeeded to do this reform. Never in our histoey as one party that represents perhaps 20% of the population been so brazen to force their way upon the country. This was supposed to be a joint effort between the govt and the people, and yet a very few behind closed doors made all of the decisions. And please don't give us talking points about this being the "way" Washington works and that bribery is the norm. That's bs, plain and simple. If the bill stood on the merits of providing universal health coverage and reducing long term costs to lead to a better counrty for all, there would never had needed to be a single sleazy deal or kickback, or what we call outside of Washington, bribery. This was not the case, the Pres could not get his own party to agree for more than a year in the process of creating the bill because it was so bad. And now we all will pay in some way or another. We'll have less doctors, less opportunity and much higher taxes. In case anyone wasn't aware of some of the finer points, the govt is also taking over the Student Loan business...what's that you say?what does the student laon biz have to do with health care? Well nothing except the gove say it as a money maker, so to all the students out there, your Pres has found a way to use your tuition loan interest to pay for part of the bill! Yes its true, they will still carge you the same rates as private for profit banks, but the interest you pay will not be reduced even though the govts rates should be cheaper, you pay for someones healthcare subsidity. Oh yeah, one exception, of as we say bribe, a single bank in Nebraska is allowed to be the only bank in the country to still be able to service student loans, the President really needed those Nebraska votes!
The ends don't justify the means, and this is a failure that will be argued and campaign on for the next 3 years, first to kick out congress, then to get a president who can fix this mess.
Let the games begin
While I wholly disagree with this process, I can agree that that goal is nobel. However, this President and the process are a fraud. The fact is the ends don't justify the means, and this bill in its current form will bankrupt the govt. No where ever has there been any actual discussion on how you add 32,000,000 new individuals to our current systems infrastructure. No one is talking about building 1,000 new hospitals or offering assisstance for medical school programs to get the 10s of thousand of new heath care professionals ready in the next 4 years. Not one piece of lagislation came forth to curb the defensive medecine that are driving us to the brink of destruction...why? Well because its a shell game and this is merely politics. There was not immenent rush neeeded to do this reform. Never in our histoey as one party that represents perhaps 20% of the population been so brazen to force their way upon the country. This was supposed to be a joint effort between the govt and the people, and yet a very few behind closed doors made all of the decisions. And please don't give us talking points about this being the "way" Washington works and that bribery is the norm. That's bs, plain and simple. If the bill stood on the merits of providing universal health coverage and reducing long term costs to lead to a better counrty for all, there would never had needed to be a single sleazy deal or kickback, or what we call outside of Washington, bribery. This was not the case, the Pres could not get his own party to agree for more than a year in the process of creating the bill because it was so bad. And now we all will pay in some way or another. We'll have less doctors, less opportunity and much higher taxes. In case anyone wasn't aware of some of the finer points, the govt is also taking over the Student Loan business...what's that you say?what does the student laon biz have to do with health care? Well nothing except the gove say it as a money maker, so to all the students out there, your Pres has found a way to use your tuition loan interest to pay for part of the bill! Yes its true, they will still carge you the same rates as private for profit banks, but the interest you pay will not be reduced even though the govts rates should be cheaper, you pay for someones healthcare subsidity. Oh yeah, one exception, of as we say bribe, a single bank in Nebraska is allowed to be the only bank in the country to still be able to service student loans, the President really needed those Nebraska votes!
The ends don't justify the means, and this is a failure that will be argued and campaign on for the next 3 years, first to kick out congress, then to get a president who can fix this mess.
Let the games begin
As for the merits of the debate, i disagree that the Bill will add individuals to the system in a way that will overtax the system. The uninsured currently receive health care through emergency room visits, often for relatively minor non-emergent issues. Care in a hospital emergency room for a cold or the flu is inefficient and expensive. Providing an alternative to the previously uninsured will reduce the strain on the ER's, freeing up those resources to some extent.
And how did you conclude that the Democrats (presumably the one party you were referring to) "represents perhaps 20% of the population?" Didn't the Democrats have to win elections to obtain a majority? Doesn't that suggest that the Democrats represent more than or at least close to 50% of the people?
03-23-2010, 07:16 AM
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I actually don't disagree with everything you said. The legislation is far from perfect. Medical malpractice reform should have been in there but isn't. The reality is that no bill is perfect and all bills are a result of compromises made to get a majority of votes in Congress. For example, the legislation enabling President Bush's tax cuts was chock full of backroom deals and sleazy provisions written and inserted by lobbyists.
I agree that if the election were held today, the Dems would suffer a punishing defeat. The right has spent massive amounts of money scaring the public into believing that this is a Stalinist takeover of private health insurance when, of course it is not. There is no public option at all in this bill. But, of course, it is a lot easier to scare the public and tear down than it is to build up.
But I think that when the scaremongering dies down and people realize that they will no longer be denied health insurance due to preexisting conditions and that they can keep their children on their health plan up until 26 (just by way of example) and when they can actually buy a health insurance plan that they can afford where before they had none, they will appreciate that this bill is a landmark achievement, just as Medicare was in the mid-1960s.
Personally, I look forward to the political fights ahead as Republicans try to leverage this legislation to springboard back into control of Congress. At least the debate will be over issues and not which member of Congress is having a sexual relationship that maybe they shouldn't be having.
The bill certainly disproves the cynical argument by some that the major political parties are interchangable. They are not. They each stand for different things. And each has honorable and sincerely held beliefs about where our country should be going and how our government should be run.
I agree that if the election were held today, the Dems would suffer a punishing defeat. The right has spent massive amounts of money scaring the public into believing that this is a Stalinist takeover of private health insurance when, of course it is not. There is no public option at all in this bill. But, of course, it is a lot easier to scare the public and tear down than it is to build up.
But I think that when the scaremongering dies down and people realize that they will no longer be denied health insurance due to preexisting conditions and that they can keep their children on their health plan up until 26 (just by way of example) and when they can actually buy a health insurance plan that they can afford where before they had none, they will appreciate that this bill is a landmark achievement, just as Medicare was in the mid-1960s.
Personally, I look forward to the political fights ahead as Republicans try to leverage this legislation to springboard back into control of Congress. At least the debate will be over issues and not which member of Congress is having a sexual relationship that maybe they shouldn't be having.
The bill certainly disproves the cynical argument by some that the major political parties are interchangable. They are not. They each stand for different things. And each has honorable and sincerely held beliefs about where our country should be going and how our government should be run.
Next stop is the courts, we'll see what they have to say
03-23-2010, 07:32 AM
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I agree, saying "this is how things are done in Washington" is not a good justification for anything. But, this is how things are done in Washington. The concept of "pork barrels", "horse trading", or whatever you want to call it goes back to the very foundation of the US political system. It is certainly nothing new to health reform. The Republicans, sensing that t hey were going to lose the vote, have done a very good job of shining a light on the issue in a way that I do not recall it being done in the past. Rest assured, however, that as soon as the Republicans are back in power, the Democrats will use the same tactic to discredit Republican initiatives.
As for the merits of the debate, i disagree that the Bill will add individuals to the system in a way that will overtax the system. The uninsured currently receive health care through emergency room visits, often for relatively minor non-emergent issues. Care in a hospital emergency room for a cold or the flu is inefficient and expensive. Providing an alternative to the previously uninsured will reduce the strain on the ER's, freeing up those resources to some extent.
And how did you conclude that the Democrats (presumably the one party you were referring to) "represents perhaps 20% of the population?" Didn't the Democrats have to win elections to obtain a majority? Doesn't that suggest that the Democrats represent more than or at least close to 50% of the people?
As for the merits of the debate, i disagree that the Bill will add individuals to the system in a way that will overtax the system. The uninsured currently receive health care through emergency room visits, often for relatively minor non-emergent issues. Care in a hospital emergency room for a cold or the flu is inefficient and expensive. Providing an alternative to the previously uninsured will reduce the strain on the ER's, freeing up those resources to some extent.
And how did you conclude that the Democrats (presumably the one party you were referring to) "represents perhaps 20% of the population?" Didn't the Democrats have to win elections to obtain a majority? Doesn't that suggest that the Democrats represent more than or at least close to 50% of the people?
As for the merits, do you not agree that if 32,000,000 indiviudals stop using the ER for basic services and go to the same pool of doctors and medical professionals currently available today that all of our healthcare services will not be severely impacted? How can it not be? Who is going to treat these new millions of patients and at the same time not affect the rest of us? Again, Im all for everyone having coverage, but we need to do it slowly as to build up the infrastructure to allow us to all benefit, not all to suffer.
there have been many, many polls on the breakdown of political affiliations, and democrats make up no more than 20% of the populist. Obama won a majority of independents to win the Presidency, there is no poll ever that has concluded the dems represent any where near 50% of the country. Some polls have broken down affliations as such...described liberals 15-20%, described conservatives 30-40%, and nearly half of all voters describe themselves as independent.
Obama's win was a choice against the previous administration as much as it was a vote for a democrat, and most sane democratic pollsters today conclude these same stats and also believe that the dems have cost themselves years of losses by going against the will of the people...Who in their wildest dreams would believe a state like Massachussettes would elect a Republican to fill Ted Kennedys Senate seat, if that wasnt the biggest sign in the world, I dont know what is...
03-23-2010, 08:14 AM
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At some point there has to be a change from business as usual, Americans are sick and tired of it, as the polls that show Congress has a less than 20% approval ratings. I just dont accept the concept that it must be this way because that is how history dictates Congress to act. That infers we all accept that our government is a farce, a slick bribery machine and nothing more..Which it very well may have become in the 20th century, but it certainly was not setup in the Continental Congress as such and we should not accept so little.
As for the merits, do you not agree that if 32,000,000 indiviudals stop using the ER for basic services and go to the same pool of doctors and medical professionals currently available today that all of our healthcare services will not be severely impacted? How can it not be? Who is going to treat these new millions of patients and at the same time not affect the rest of us? Again, Im all for everyone having coverage, but we need to do it slowly as to build up the infrastructure to allow us to all benefit, not all to suffer.
1) there have been many, many polls on the breakdown of political affiliations, and democrats make up no more than 20% of the populist. Obama won a majority of independents to win the Presidency, there is no poll ever that has concluded the dems represent any where near 50% of the country. Some polls have broken down affliations as such...described liberals 15-20%, described conservatives 30-40%, and nearly half of all voters describe themselves as independent.
Obama's win was a choice against the previous administration as much as it was a vote for a democrat, and most sane democratic pollsters today conclude these same stats and also believe that the dems have cost themselves years of losses by going against the will of the people...Who in their wildest dreams would believe a state like Massachussettes would elect a Republican to fill Ted Kennedys Senate seat, if that wasnt the biggest sign in the world, I dont know what is...
As for the merits, do you not agree that if 32,000,000 indiviudals stop using the ER for basic services and go to the same pool of doctors and medical professionals currently available today that all of our healthcare services will not be severely impacted? How can it not be? Who is going to treat these new millions of patients and at the same time not affect the rest of us? Again, Im all for everyone having coverage, but we need to do it slowly as to build up the infrastructure to allow us to all benefit, not all to suffer.
1) there have been many, many polls on the breakdown of political affiliations, and democrats make up no more than 20% of the populist. Obama won a majority of independents to win the Presidency, there is no poll ever that has concluded the dems represent any where near 50% of the country. Some polls have broken down affliations as such...described liberals 15-20%, described conservatives 30-40%, and nearly half of all voters describe themselves as independent.
Obama's win was a choice against the previous administration as much as it was a vote for a democrat, and most sane democratic pollsters today conclude these same stats and also believe that the dems have cost themselves years of losses by going against the will of the people...Who in their wildest dreams would believe a state like Massachussettes would elect a Republican to fill Ted Kennedys Senate seat, if that wasnt the biggest sign in the world, I dont know what is...