The 3 litre car
10-21-2006, 01:26 AM
#1
Contributors
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Oxfordshire, UK
Posts: 1,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: E61 535d Apr 05. UK spec + Media Pack, Luxury Pack & Visibility Pack
A recent exchange of posts between Iceman and myself:
So, here is the answer to number 3. Anyone care to provide an opinion on 1 and 2?
This is getting interesting - honestly. Two questions:
1) What is this technology that would permit effectively to decrease fuel consumption by 70% - thereby reaching roughly 100% thermodynamic efficiency? (current petrol cars are around 20-25%, Diesels ~35-45%)
2) If it has been around for 50 years or anyway a considerable amount of time, why have manufacturers dilly dallied with direct injection, common rail/high pressure injection, turbocharging, ever more sophisticated electronics... but all on "old" engines like Otto and Diesel (and Wankel)?
Please don't tell me that the answer to number 2 is a conspiracy theory by the energy multinationals; I have worked for two at board level, and such thing does not exist. While clearly they are very happy with the current dependency on fossil fuels and their stranglehold on them, they are all managed by smart enough people to realise that the (long term) future is not there.
(3) Perhaps we should start a thread on this - or are we the only two interested? No way but trying I guess, so look here
1) What is this technology that would permit effectively to decrease fuel consumption by 70% - thereby reaching roughly 100% thermodynamic efficiency? (current petrol cars are around 20-25%, Diesels ~35-45%)
2) If it has been around for 50 years or anyway a considerable amount of time, why have manufacturers dilly dallied with direct injection, common rail/high pressure injection, turbocharging, ever more sophisticated electronics... but all on "old" engines like Otto and Diesel (and Wankel)?
Please don't tell me that the answer to number 2 is a conspiracy theory by the energy multinationals; I have worked for two at board level, and such thing does not exist. While clearly they are very happy with the current dependency on fossil fuels and their stranglehold on them, they are all managed by smart enough people to realise that the (long term) future is not there.
(3) Perhaps we should start a thread on this - or are we the only two interested? No way but trying I guess, so look here
10-21-2006, 10:33 AM
#2
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 18,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: F02 LCI Individual
Model Year: 2013
Seriously you are now trying to take it to another level, and I am not willing to do so.
I only have two words, and those are meant VERY serious, but you wont believe it anyways:
Renault & Greenpeace
Have a nice day.
I only have two words, and those are meant VERY serious, but you wont believe it anyways:
Renault & Greenpeace
Have a nice day.
10-22-2006, 01:45 AM
#3
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 18,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: F02 LCI Individual
Model Year: 2013
@ dlevi67:
I didn't meant you were offensive, when I said another level. I meant you are taking it to a level of political discussion, because now we are getting into politics.
And I don't want to discuss this here on a car forum.
I have replied to your PM and given you details.
But because I have been a press spokesman for the mentioned NGO I really don't want to go into discussions here.
I hope you understand and that the infos I gave you may help you understand my point of view.
Thanks.
I didn't meant you were offensive, when I said another level. I meant you are taking it to a level of political discussion, because now we are getting into politics.
And I don't want to discuss this here on a car forum.
I have replied to your PM and given you details.
But because I have been a press spokesman for the mentioned NGO I really don't want to go into discussions here.
I hope you understand and that the infos I gave you may help you understand my point of view.
Thanks.
10-22-2006, 03:57 AM
#4
Contributors
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Thailand
Posts: 2,052
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
way to go guys!! this type of discussion just goes to show that there are some very educated people around here!! sorry, just wanted to applaud you two on the intelligent discussion on all this, its very interesting, I urge you guys to continue discussing it, I really wanna follow on about all this... 
10-22-2006, 02:25 PM
#5
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2004
Location: FL
Posts: 18,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: F02 LCI Individual
Model Year: 2013
10-23-2006, 02:08 AM
#6
Senior Members
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Genova, Italy
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 535d Eccelsa, 05 2005 (built 12-04), sapphireblack, beige dakota leather, electric seats, poplar wood trim, sport suspension, 124 style 18" alloys, differentiated f/r runflat tyres, steptronic, adaptive light control, bi-xenon, BMW PRO nav, cd, cd changer, electric-foldable and automatic antidazzle rear mirrors, automatic antidazzle internal rear mirror, adjustable central armrest, BT, Hifi Professional LOGIC7 , extended functions aircon, full lighting package, green comfort fascia on windshield, PDC park distance control, voice control, CPT9000 car phone, BMW Assist, BMW On-line, BMW Tracking, alarm system, programmable remote controls.
Originally Posted by Iceman' post='347767' date='Oct 23 2006, 12:25 AM
The same car has been presented to the Italian public by the Italian TV showman Beppe Grillo, but again with a singular lack of technical details about all the solutions employed in the design-developement of the car and how it performs, meets safety standards, anti-pollution rules, European crash tests.
Can we have more on it? Only technical, please.
10-23-2006, 04:39 AM
#7
Contributors
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Oxfordshire, UK
Posts: 1,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: E61 535d Apr 05. UK spec + Media Pack, Luxury Pack & Visibility Pack
This is as close as I could find to a fully comp technical spec:
http://archive.greenpeace.org/climat...aq/faq3.html#3
I think it answers most questions in an easy to understand way, though for a really detailed spec I don't think there's going to be an alternative to going to the Greenpeace project manager(s).
While it's clear that many of the technologies are applicable - and the question becomes "why not"?, on some things I still have my doubts:
Two cylinders 4 stroke - very efficient perhaps, but no NVH consequences? Anybody who has driven a Fiat Panda 30 or similar will have recollections which are slightly different... (though it would get you to 5l/100km if driven at relatively constant speed of 90-100km/h and you could cope with the noise
) Perhaps the engine mounting is particularly sophisticated - possible, if you are reducing engine size by 60%!
A Twingo satisfying the needs of a family with two children is slightly euphemistical. Perhaps as a second car, but I doubt they've seriously gone shopping for the week with two kids and two adults in a Twingo. Never mind on holiday.
There is also one theoretical mistake: "engines achieve their most favourable specific fuel consumption only close to full load". Wrong. Engines achieve their most favourable specific fuel consumption at the maximum torque rpm. Which is part of the reason why Diesels in real life deliver lower consumption (and turbo/supercharged engines in general can have lower consumption as they have flatter torque curves - though in part this is currently frittered away in the name of getting higher performance, rather than optimizing the engine for running at typical road speeds).
One interesting question - which goes back to the original cause of the discussion - is how would a well-tuned Diesel fare in a similar car? Obvious cons are the heavier weight and lower specific power (marginally now - a lot more 10 years ago), obvious pro is higher thermodynamic efficiency of the Diesel cycle and the ability of burning almost any fuel given proper tuning of injection equipment.
http://archive.greenpeace.org/climat...aq/faq3.html#3
I think it answers most questions in an easy to understand way, though for a really detailed spec I don't think there's going to be an alternative to going to the Greenpeace project manager(s).
While it's clear that many of the technologies are applicable - and the question becomes "why not"?, on some things I still have my doubts:
Two cylinders 4 stroke - very efficient perhaps, but no NVH consequences? Anybody who has driven a Fiat Panda 30 or similar will have recollections which are slightly different... (though it would get you to 5l/100km if driven at relatively constant speed of 90-100km/h and you could cope with the noise
) Perhaps the engine mounting is particularly sophisticated - possible, if you are reducing engine size by 60%!A Twingo satisfying the needs of a family with two children is slightly euphemistical. Perhaps as a second car, but I doubt they've seriously gone shopping for the week with two kids and two adults in a Twingo. Never mind on holiday.
There is also one theoretical mistake: "engines achieve their most favourable specific fuel consumption only close to full load". Wrong. Engines achieve their most favourable specific fuel consumption at the maximum torque rpm. Which is part of the reason why Diesels in real life deliver lower consumption (and turbo/supercharged engines in general can have lower consumption as they have flatter torque curves - though in part this is currently frittered away in the name of getting higher performance, rather than optimizing the engine for running at typical road speeds).
One interesting question - which goes back to the original cause of the discussion - is how would a well-tuned Diesel fare in a similar car? Obvious cons are the heavier weight and lower specific power (marginally now - a lot more 10 years ago), obvious pro is higher thermodynamic efficiency of the Diesel cycle and the ability of burning almost any fuel given proper tuning of injection equipment.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
mantraguy
E61 Touring Discussion
1
03-09-2015 02:56 AM
Thomas the Swede
Press Articles & Your Comments
0
09-13-2003 12:22 PM