Car and Driver Comparison
07-15-2010 | 12:41 PM
#71
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Joined: May 2005
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From: Chicago, IL
07-15-2010 | 03:24 PM
#72
Senior Members
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 422
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From: North Carolina
My Ride: 05 545 BLK/BLK
Model Year: 2005
"we no longer drive the "ultimate driving machine", we're now asked to look for "joy" in our driving."
:-) This is very interesting. I don't know how many people actually realized the change in the slogan. Things that make you think. Good stuff Swajames!
:-) This is very interesting. I don't know how many people actually realized the change in the slogan. Things that make you think. Good stuff Swajames!
07-15-2010 | 04:53 PM
#73
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Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Boston, US
Perhaps, but it's the best - and with the right level of investment it is by far the fastest - car on your list by a massive margin. The Turbo gets 0-60 in a little over 3 seconds - I've seen 3.2 as the fastest and it will outhandle almost anything. Looks are polarizing (I quite like it, I can see why others may not) but it is a fantastic car. It's selling amazingly well despite the fact that you can barely get into even the base V8 models for much less than 100K.
07-15-2010 | 05:12 PM
#74
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Boston, MA USA
And as an enthusiast, I'm very, very disappointed. The 5er has been the perfect car for me for years and years. But if I owned BMW stock, I'd want them to have the largest market appeal as is possible and generate the greatest bottom line. I think that that's the direction that we're seeing. And although I'm now thinking about non-BMW products for the first time in many, many years, I'm guessing that the F10 is going to be a wild success. Good for BMW. Too bad for me . . .
07-16-2010 | 08:59 AM
#75
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 977
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From: Chicago
My Ride: 2006 BMW 550i "Ben Hogan's 5 Iron"
SilverGrey/Black Sport, L7, NAV, CW, AS, Split FR
2003 Audi A4 3.0 CVT "Part of the Moniker"
Silver/Ebony, Prem, CW, Star 17s
It's not a question of how great BMW's aren't, CVT, it's a question of how great BMW's used to be, ought to be and could be from the perspective of the enthusiast.
The question is whether that's the market BMW now wants to serve. There's no doubt the F10 is a fantastic car, the point that is being debated is whether the 5 has become homogenous with the 7 Series rather than what it used to be, which was a close to perfect blend of the sportiness of the 3 combined with the larger size and more upscale environment of the 7. The F10 simply seems to have less of the soul and spirit of the 3 and more of the grandeur of the 7. That's not necessarily a bad thing, that combination still results in a fine automobile, but the E60 seemed to me to get the balance just right (as did the E39 before it) whereas BMW is clearly looking to take the F10 in something of a different and less enthusiast-focused direction. I'm not alone in that thinking judging by plenty of posts in this very thread and on the forum in general. BMW's own revised marketing strategy is highly instructive - we no longer drive the "ultimate driving machine", we're now asked to look for "joy" in our driving. A subtle, but highly significant distinction.
Finally, the current S6 (and also the RS6) is indeed built on the exact same C6 platform as the standard A6.
The question is whether that's the market BMW now wants to serve. There's no doubt the F10 is a fantastic car, the point that is being debated is whether the 5 has become homogenous with the 7 Series rather than what it used to be, which was a close to perfect blend of the sportiness of the 3 combined with the larger size and more upscale environment of the 7. The F10 simply seems to have less of the soul and spirit of the 3 and more of the grandeur of the 7. That's not necessarily a bad thing, that combination still results in a fine automobile, but the E60 seemed to me to get the balance just right (as did the E39 before it) whereas BMW is clearly looking to take the F10 in something of a different and less enthusiast-focused direction. I'm not alone in that thinking judging by plenty of posts in this very thread and on the forum in general. BMW's own revised marketing strategy is highly instructive - we no longer drive the "ultimate driving machine", we're now asked to look for "joy" in our driving. A subtle, but highly significant distinction.
Finally, the current S6 (and also the RS6) is indeed built on the exact same C6 platform as the standard A6.
I agree with the points in the discussion. In these are in my first post.
No kidding S6 has the same basic elenents with the A6. We are all cars guys ah and know the basics? I'd assume you know the s6 was highly tweaked like the rs4 to removed the old Audi traits.
Let's just not pretend the current a6 has the goods to roust the f10. Let's see how old a6 fares in other tests.
07-16-2010 | 09:04 AM
#76
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 977
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From: Chicago
My Ride: 2006 BMW 550i "Ben Hogan's 5 Iron"
SilverGrey/Black Sport, L7, NAV, CW, AS, Split FR
2003 Audi A4 3.0 CVT "Part of the Moniker"
Silver/Ebony, Prem, CW, Star 17s
Right.
And as an enthusiast, I'm very, very disappointed. The 5er has been the perfect car for me for years and years. But if I owned BMW stock, I'd want them to have the largest market appeal as is possible and generate the greatest bottom line. I think that that's the direction that we're seeing. And although I'm now thinking about non-BMW products for the first time in many, many years, I'm guessing that the F10 is going to be a wild success. Good for BMW. Too bad for me . . .
And as an enthusiast, I'm very, very disappointed. The 5er has been the perfect car for me for years and years. But if I owned BMW stock, I'd want them to have the largest market appeal as is possible and generate the greatest bottom line. I think that that's the direction that we're seeing. And although I'm now thinking about non-BMW products for the first time in many, many years, I'm guessing that the F10 is going to be a wild success. Good for BMW. Too bad for me . . .
07-16-2010 | 11:20 AM
#77
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Joined: Apr 2010
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BMW, like any other corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders, not a specific group of customers. I think the F10 will appeal to more Mercedes/Lexus drivers than did the E60. From what I've read about BMW's feedback from 5-series owners, the typical E60 owner will prefer the F10 over the E60. That leaves the lunatic fringe (e.g., those of us who post in these blogs) somewhat out in the cold.
I owned an E39 before I got the F10. I prefer steering feel on the E39. But the F10 is a much more capable car in other ways. I think the perfect car would have been an F10, 2 incher shorter, 200 lbs ligher and the steering feel of an E39. That car, though, doesn't exist and I think the F10 is the closest that that ideal.
EDubb
I owned an E39 before I got the F10. I prefer steering feel on the E39. But the F10 is a much more capable car in other ways. I think the perfect car would have been an F10, 2 incher shorter, 200 lbs ligher and the steering feel of an E39. That car, though, doesn't exist and I think the F10 is the closest that that ideal.
EDubb
07-16-2010 | 09:05 PM
#78
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,672
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From: New Orleans, LA USA
My Ride: E90 M3
Model Year: 2011
He has yet to post here but forum member pharding is posting on another board about his F10 european delivery, not a glowing review of the car unfortunately. Not really bad either, more focused on the steering feel and some fit and finish issues he had. I look forward to a more detailed write up when he is free to do so...
07-17-2010 | 07:49 AM
#79
Super Moderator
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 17,310
Likes: 2
From: Pittsburgh, PA USA
My Ride: G30 M550i
Model Year: 2018
First of all, thanks to everyone for maintaining such a great deal of respect for each other during this debate! 
As mentioned by others, this thread brings back memories of the Roadfly days when the E60 haters were personally attacking the E60 lovers over the new design, the iDrive interface, etc. As most of you know (and as pointed out above), this board was formed because of the troll posts from those haters that continually beat up on people who were just stating their opinions about what turned out to be a very successful car/design. (Newbs can click here to read about how/why this board was formed.)
The fact that we can have an adult discussion about what clearly is a touchy subject just shows the amount of class our members possess.
Now for my two cents on all of this...
First, I have to say that I've test driven the F10 550i (sport) three different times (always relatively short drives but on twisty, back roads) and I have to say that with each drive, the car feels better and more capable. Because the car doesn't feel like my E60 550i, at first it's sort of strange. It's clearly not as harsh riding and yes, the steering feels lighter. The first time I took a sharp turn at speed, I felt as if the car, even with active roll stabilization, wasn't as flat as it would have been in the E60.
On successive drives on the same roads, I started to realize that the car did stay flat and that it might have been something I imagined on the first drive due to the car being a little more comfortable and quiet, a little less harsh, etc.
Here's my point...the car is obviously different than what many of us are used to. What I found is that the more I drove the F10 (and the more I played with the adjustable suspension settings), the more I realized that you really need to drive this car a bit to fully realize it's potential. I think people's initial impression might be negative due to the perception it gives you that it's not as capable of a car as the E60.
As we've all seen before, Car and Driver, as well as many automotive publications, don't always get it right. I'm not saying they're right or wrong here but what I am saying is that unless you've driven one a few times (or for an extended period of time), you may not want to pass judgement just because an Audi scored higher in a comparison test. For every negative journalistic review, there's probably another one out there that's positive. (Take a look at how much fun VBH has when she drove the car for Fifth Gear!)
To those that haven't driven one yet, I highly recommend you do so to get a better feel (pun intended) for what this car is all about. Put the suspension in Sport or Sport+ and see how well she runs!
As mentioned by others, this thread brings back memories of the Roadfly days when the E60 haters were personally attacking the E60 lovers over the new design, the iDrive interface, etc. As most of you know (and as pointed out above), this board was formed because of the troll posts from those haters that continually beat up on people who were just stating their opinions about what turned out to be a very successful car/design. (Newbs can click here to read about how/why this board was formed.)The fact that we can have an adult discussion about what clearly is a touchy subject just shows the amount of class our members possess.
Now for my two cents on all of this...
First, I have to say that I've test driven the F10 550i (sport) three different times (always relatively short drives but on twisty, back roads) and I have to say that with each drive, the car feels better and more capable. Because the car doesn't feel like my E60 550i, at first it's sort of strange. It's clearly not as harsh riding and yes, the steering feels lighter. The first time I took a sharp turn at speed, I felt as if the car, even with active roll stabilization, wasn't as flat as it would have been in the E60.
On successive drives on the same roads, I started to realize that the car did stay flat and that it might have been something I imagined on the first drive due to the car being a little more comfortable and quiet, a little less harsh, etc.
Here's my point...the car is obviously different than what many of us are used to. What I found is that the more I drove the F10 (and the more I played with the adjustable suspension settings), the more I realized that you really need to drive this car a bit to fully realize it's potential. I think people's initial impression might be negative due to the perception it gives you that it's not as capable of a car as the E60.
As we've all seen before, Car and Driver, as well as many automotive publications, don't always get it right. I'm not saying they're right or wrong here but what I am saying is that unless you've driven one a few times (or for an extended period of time), you may not want to pass judgement just because an Audi scored higher in a comparison test. For every negative journalistic review, there's probably another one out there that's positive. (Take a look at how much fun VBH has when she drove the car for Fifth Gear!)
To those that haven't driven one yet, I highly recommend you do so to get a better feel (pun intended) for what this car is all about. Put the suspension in Sport or Sport+ and see how well she runs!
07-17-2010 | 07:55 AM
#80
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,672
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From: New Orleans, LA USA
My Ride: E90 M3
Model Year: 2011
Well said Rudy, this is an excellent forum and the members have done a great job keeping the debate respectful and about the car. 
Change always stirs up mixed feelings and I admit that I am no different. I love my E60 and am still debating on the F10 vs E90 M3 (leaning M3). The F10 is a great car and you are spot on that it takes more than a 10 minute test drive to appreciate the car's capabilities. Given that my dealer is not yet accepting orders because of the September changes, I am still have time to take additional test drives and decide...
Change always stirs up mixed feelings and I admit that I am no different. I love my E60 and am still debating on the F10 vs E90 M3 (leaning M3). The F10 is a great car and you are spot on that it takes more than a 10 minute test drive to appreciate the car's capabilities. Given that my dealer is not yet accepting orders because of the September changes, I am still have time to take additional test drives and decide...