M5 vs. CTS-V
09-24-2009 | 01:33 PM
#61
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Model Year: 2008
PJ, I think you're taking some of this out of context. I doubt anyone here is of the view that GM cars, in general, are better than BMW and I've not seen a single post or suggestion that this is the case. At the individual model level, however, things are occasionally less clear-cut. This thread discussed a case in point. The CTS-V, and a couple of Corvette models such as the Z06 and ZR1, are good examples of cars that are produced by GM but which are highly competitive with the very best that Germany has to offer. The CTS-V arguably falls down on some of the points that I mentioned in an earlier post, namely that it lacks the heritage, prestige and attention to detail that characterize say an M5, but it is patently obvious that it is no less capable a car when it is judged objectively and not subjectively.
Re the M5 being aspirational and the CTS-V being the one you settle for - that's perhaps something of a non-sequitur as it's also non-contextual. The truism is that there's almost always a car that is "better" than the one you have. And yes, there are plenty of people out there who "settle" for a car such as the M5, or a car like my 997, but aspire to something more exotic. I am one myself - I personally aspire to a better car than the one I have, but other realities meant that I "settled" for the car I bought. And there indeed people who aspire to a CTS-V. The simple reality is that the CTS-V is more attainable, but for some it's no less aspirational.
Re the M5 being aspirational and the CTS-V being the one you settle for - that's perhaps something of a non-sequitur as it's also non-contextual. The truism is that there's almost always a car that is "better" than the one you have. And yes, there are plenty of people out there who "settle" for a car such as the M5, or a car like my 997, but aspire to something more exotic. I am one myself - I personally aspire to a better car than the one I have, but other realities meant that I "settled" for the car I bought. And there indeed people who aspire to a CTS-V. The simple reality is that the CTS-V is more attainable, but for some it's no less aspirational.
09-24-2009 | 01:48 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='1016122' date='Sep 24 2009, 02:33 PM
PJ, I think you're taking some of this out of context. I doubt anyone here is of the view that GM cars, in general, are better than BMW and I've not seen a single post or suggestion that this is the case. At the individual model level, however, things are occasionally less clear-cut. This thread discussed a case in point. The CTS-V, and a couple of Corvette models such as the Z06 and ZR1, are good examples of cars that are produced by GM but which are highly competitive with the very best that Germany has to offer. The CTS-V arguably falls down on some of the points that I mentioned in an earlier post, namely that it lacks the heritage, prestige and attention to detail that characterize say an M5, but it is patently obvious that it is no less capable a car.
Re the M5 being aspirational and the CTS-V being the one you settle for - that's perhaps something of a non-sequitur as it's also non-contextual. There are plenty of people out there who settle for the M5, or a car like my 997, but aspire to something more exotic. I aspire to a better car than I have, but I settled for the car I bought. And there indeed people who aspire to a CTS-V. The simple reality is that the CTS-V is more attainable,
Re the M5 being aspirational and the CTS-V being the one you settle for - that's perhaps something of a non-sequitur as it's also non-contextual. There are plenty of people out there who settle for the M5, or a car like my 997, but aspire to something more exotic. I aspire to a better car than I have, but I settled for the car I bought. And there indeed people who aspire to a CTS-V. The simple reality is that the CTS-V is more attainable,
The current CTS-V is competitive with the M5 (and yes, in some aspects exceeds the current M5), it is more attainable seeing as how it costs significantly less. I dunno if any M5 owners settled for their cars instead of something else, the M5 is in a VERY small class and those that can purchase a new one usually can afford a second more sporty car if they desire - like the Porsche.
09-24-2009 | 05:19 PM
#63
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I think it's really a question of what matters most to the individual. If a person wants the ultimate 5 series sedan- they opt for the M5.
However, if someone wants M5 eclipsing performance, at (or below) M3 prices, then they go for the CTS-V. To some, the interior and exterior fit & finish on the CTS-V is awesome, and the E60's interior looks bland and sparse. To others the CTS-V's interior and exterior fit and finish leave something to be desired, whereas the same areas on the E60 is considered superb, and richly done.
Personally, I've sat in both- and to me, my 2006 MDX's interior (black on black) looked better than both (E60 & CTS), and definitely had more gadgets. However, that's a subjective statement.
To paraphrase what swajames said, subjectively- M5 BMW owners may never admit the CTS-V is in their league. However, when viewed objectively, stock-for-stock, the CTS-V meets or exceeds M5 performance, as well as size, weight, and everything. Those points are in black and white, proven in a straight line and on the road course, and cannot be argued.
Subjectively: M5 will win in most cases. Objectively, it loses. Bang for the buck, it loses. It has nothing to do with class or roots- it's really all about, what matter most to people when they are writing the check. Besides, to most- a $60,000 car requires a lot of aspiration to reach- to reach $100K, requires more. For the $40K premium, they could get a CTS-V, and a base Acura MDX for a daily driver.
It's all about what matters to the individual when it's check writing time...
However, if someone wants M5 eclipsing performance, at (or below) M3 prices, then they go for the CTS-V. To some, the interior and exterior fit & finish on the CTS-V is awesome, and the E60's interior looks bland and sparse. To others the CTS-V's interior and exterior fit and finish leave something to be desired, whereas the same areas on the E60 is considered superb, and richly done.
Personally, I've sat in both- and to me, my 2006 MDX's interior (black on black) looked better than both (E60 & CTS), and definitely had more gadgets. However, that's a subjective statement.
To paraphrase what swajames said, subjectively- M5 BMW owners may never admit the CTS-V is in their league. However, when viewed objectively, stock-for-stock, the CTS-V meets or exceeds M5 performance, as well as size, weight, and everything. Those points are in black and white, proven in a straight line and on the road course, and cannot be argued.
Subjectively: M5 will win in most cases. Objectively, it loses. Bang for the buck, it loses. It has nothing to do with class or roots- it's really all about, what matter most to people when they are writing the check. Besides, to most- a $60,000 car requires a lot of aspiration to reach- to reach $100K, requires more. For the $40K premium, they could get a CTS-V, and a base Acura MDX for a daily driver.
It's all about what matters to the individual when it's check writing time...
09-28-2009 | 09:04 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by BMWPower06' post='1013454' date='Sep 21 2009, 09:20 PM
ring times are quite subjective, they are all on different days in different conditions and usually different drivers.
I remember reading an article before the CTS-V came out where they lined it up on the track against an M5. The two cars kept trading fast lap times, they were forced to leave early for some reason or another and the V was only about .1 second ahead of the M5 and the CTS-V got to do an extra lap that the M5 did not.
I remember reading an article before the CTS-V came out where they lined it up on the track against an M5. The two cars kept trading fast lap times, they were forced to leave early for some reason or another and the V was only about .1 second ahead of the M5 and the CTS-V got to do an extra lap that the M5 did not.
Car and Driver got a 4.3 0-60 outta th MT V and a 3.9 outta the Auto.
So if you wanna compare apples to apples, then they have to be the fastest versions of both cars or the slower.
There is no drag video of the Autos, but there is:
MT vs MT.
09-28-2009 | 09:12 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='1016122' date='Sep 24 2009, 02:33 PM
PJ, I think you're taking some of this out of context. I doubt anyone here is of the view that GM cars, in general, are better than BMW and I've not seen a single post or suggestion that this is the case. At the individual model level, however, things are occasionally less clear-cut. This thread discussed a case in point. The CTS-V, and a couple of Corvette models such as the Z06 and ZR1, are good examples of cars that are produced by GM but which are highly competitive with the very best that Germany has to offer. The CTS-V arguably falls down on some of the points that I mentioned in an earlier post, namely that it lacks the heritage, prestige and attention to detail that characterize say an M5, but it is patently obvious that it is no less capable a car when it is judged objectively and not subjectively.
Re the M5 being aspirational and the CTS-V being the one you settle for - that's perhaps something of a non-sequitur as it's also non-contextual. The truism is that there's almost always a car that is "better" than the one you have. And yes, there are plenty of people out there who "settle" for a car such as the M5, or a car like my 997, but aspire to something more exotic. I am one myself - I personally aspire to a better car than the one I have, but other realities meant that I "settled" for the car I bought. And there indeed people who aspire to a CTS-V. The simple reality is that the CTS-V is more attainable, but for some it's no less aspirational.
Re the M5 being aspirational and the CTS-V being the one you settle for - that's perhaps something of a non-sequitur as it's also non-contextual. The truism is that there's almost always a car that is "better" than the one you have. And yes, there are plenty of people out there who "settle" for a car such as the M5, or a car like my 997, but aspire to something more exotic. I am one myself - I personally aspire to a better car than the one I have, but other realities meant that I "settled" for the car I bought. And there indeed people who aspire to a CTS-V. The simple reality is that the CTS-V is more attainable, but for some it's no less aspirational.
Rex
09-28-2009 | 09:24 PM
#66
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My Ride: 2008 Porsche 911 Carrera S Convertible. Midnight Blue, 6 Speed.Retired - 2007 997 Carrera S, Midnight Blue, Grey leather, premium audioRetired - 2007 550i, Monaco Blue over Beige, Navigation, Logic 7, Cold Weather Pack, Comfort Access, Sport Package
Model Year: 2008
Originally Posted by olskooldj' post='1019926' date='Sep 28 2009, 10:12 PM
Well said, Steve - I'm gonna buy you a drink next time we meet for lunch!
Rex
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