Sad news... The downfall of the mighty V8s
10-18-2007, 05:43 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by pukka' post='482742' date='Oct 17 2007, 01:32 PM
I'm not an engineer so I don't know specifics on turbo dimensions in relation to maximum power output. But I do know history and business. You bring up a good point. However, there is at least one other reason why BMW doesn't make the 535 output stronger:
Marketing: BMW knew when they started production on the 535 that it would eat into 550 sales. Who pay more $$$ for a 550 when a cheaper 535 could beat it stock?? Back in the day, the 3.8l turbo in Buick's GNX was at the time considered the most powerful production car motor built yet GM kept it "detuned" in order to maintain Corvette sales.
Furthermore Nissan (Skyline GT-R) and Toyota (Supra) have been prodcing twin turbo setups for over a decade with SMALLER displacement engines and have achieved similar results. Its been documented that with regular maintenance a twin turbo GT-R could produce up to 600hp and last well over 100k miles. I would think BMW would be playing it "safe" with their setup since they don't want to lose face if tuners discovered their twin turbo setup couldn't run as hard as the "ricers".
Although the turbos are small, there is still some noticeable lag - especially when moving from a standstill. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to counter this the turbos would be designed to spool faster.......which sacrifices boost.......which lowers output power. My point here is that the engine was detuned for smoother acceleration, not fear of mechanical breakdown. This is just my opinion though.....
Marketing: BMW knew when they started production on the 535 that it would eat into 550 sales. Who pay more $$$ for a 550 when a cheaper 535 could beat it stock?? Back in the day, the 3.8l turbo in Buick's GNX was at the time considered the most powerful production car motor built yet GM kept it "detuned" in order to maintain Corvette sales.
Furthermore Nissan (Skyline GT-R) and Toyota (Supra) have been prodcing twin turbo setups for over a decade with SMALLER displacement engines and have achieved similar results. Its been documented that with regular maintenance a twin turbo GT-R could produce up to 600hp and last well over 100k miles. I would think BMW would be playing it "safe" with their setup since they don't want to lose face if tuners discovered their twin turbo setup couldn't run as hard as the "ricers".
Although the turbos are small, there is still some noticeable lag - especially when moving from a standstill. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to counter this the turbos would be designed to spool faster.......which sacrifices boost.......which lowers output power. My point here is that the engine was detuned for smoother acceleration, not fear of mechanical breakdown. This is just my opinion though.....
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10-18-2007, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Heloha' post='482746' date='Oct 17 2007, 10:46 AM
Seams too like you really have to load up on options to compare the 550 which comes standard with a lot of extras so at the end of the day the cost is really pretty close and just give buyers more decisions whether to go econo sleeper or v8 beast...in my opinion at least!
This is not what I found...having just gone throught this excercise with identical options...the 550i was still in the $10K + range higher than a similarly loaded 535i. Not very close in price really.
These are both great cars and you should really get the one you prefer. I have no doubt that the twin turbo will respond well to mods AND be able to operate in a reliable manner (as long as you don't take it too far)....but the V8 can be modded as well! I have a GT500 and by adding a tune and JLT CAI I added 80rwhp and 70ftlbs....and that's only stage one...I can add a smaller pully and one step colder plugs and add another 50 - 70rwhp....so V8's can be modded...curious how much hp are the 550i and 535i internals rated at? For instance, the GT500 is rated to 720hp with no problems.
10-18-2007, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pukka' post='483022' date='Oct 18 2007, 01:43 AM
Normally, stated hp ratings (unless specifically noted) are at the crank, not the wheels. Thus 375hp would actually be about 315hp on a chassis dyno, assuming a 15% drivetrain loss
10-18-2007, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pukka' post='483017' date='Oct 18 2007, 01:33 AM
Steeper gears in a diff would result in quicker acceleration and LOWER top speeed. The gears would top out sooner and your engine would redline faster.
Actually the car will still hit 170+ mph with the gears so now worries there
And the redline gets increased slightly with most software companies to help make up that shorter final drive.
11-02-2007, 07:22 AM
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I am consider myself novice when it comes to car mod, but 70HP from cold-air-intake??? Did you dyno the before/after or that what the manufacture claims?
Serioulsy, if you plan to mod your E60, then 535i is a better option (please it's not a better car by any means since people is just touchy about this I6-TT vs V8
)
Turbo cars are easier to tweak than N/A cousins, just check Supra, Evo, WRX, A4 forums then you'll see. The idea is to provide optimum if not maximum air pressure going into the engine. This is done by tuning the waste gate and by-pass-valve to get the desired air-fuel mixture with help of Software fuel re-map as well. Note you can only burn fuel when there is oxygen, chemestry 101.
Check this post:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38856
That's why Dinan/AA have been adding super-charge/turbo to 4.4i/3.0IL cause they can't extract any more HP without force-induction thechnique.
The argument BMW would put bigger HP on 535i if they can is bogus, off-course they can but then what are they going to do to the sales of current 550i. Let see V8 360HP and IL6 TT 340 HP!, that's why BMW de-tune the IL6 to 300HP. This is the same as my Audi A4 in 97, the V6 was rated 220HP and the 1.8T was 150HP. Audi enthusiast knew back then that the 1.8T motor with bigger turbo can easily go to 250HP.
The idea of mods turns cars into unreliable car is way over exagerated, If you drive a mod 535i like you drive a 550i, very hard, then there is no reason a 535i will fall apart sooner than the 550i.
My A4 1.8T stage 2/3 racks in 105000 miles on bigger turbo, higher pressure fuel injector, cold-air-intake, and has survive 2 track events, can't say the same about my zimmerman cross drill rotors though
Serioulsy, if you plan to mod your E60, then 535i is a better option (please it's not a better car by any means since people is just touchy about this I6-TT vs V8
)Turbo cars are easier to tweak than N/A cousins, just check Supra, Evo, WRX, A4 forums then you'll see. The idea is to provide optimum if not maximum air pressure going into the engine. This is done by tuning the waste gate and by-pass-valve to get the desired air-fuel mixture with help of Software fuel re-map as well. Note you can only burn fuel when there is oxygen, chemestry 101.
Check this post:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38856
That's why Dinan/AA have been adding super-charge/turbo to 4.4i/3.0IL cause they can't extract any more HP without force-induction thechnique.
The argument BMW would put bigger HP on 535i if they can is bogus, off-course they can but then what are they going to do to the sales of current 550i. Let see V8 360HP and IL6 TT 340 HP!, that's why BMW de-tune the IL6 to 300HP. This is the same as my Audi A4 in 97, the V6 was rated 220HP and the 1.8T was 150HP. Audi enthusiast knew back then that the 1.8T motor with bigger turbo can easily go to 250HP.
The idea of mods turns cars into unreliable car is way over exagerated, If you drive a mod 535i like you drive a 550i, very hard, then there is no reason a 535i will fall apart sooner than the 550i.
My A4 1.8T stage 2/3 racks in 105000 miles on bigger turbo, higher pressure fuel injector, cold-air-intake, and has survive 2 track events, can't say the same about my zimmerman cross drill rotors though
11-02-2007, 07:42 AM
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I always thought a turbo is a time bomb. I always prefer a normaly aspirated engine, though I know could not be moded for much gains.
I keep my cars and I look after them, so reliability is important for me. a V8 BMW would naturally be faster than the vast majority of cars on the road including many turbo powered, so I say go for a normally aspirated whenever you can and leave the Turbos for boy racers and the likes.
I keep my cars and I look after them, so reliability is important for me. a V8 BMW would naturally be faster than the vast majority of cars on the road including many turbo powered, so I say go for a normally aspirated whenever you can and leave the Turbos for boy racers and the likes.
11-02-2007, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by the-oneil' post='489026' date='Nov 2 2007, 10:42 AM
I always thought a turbo is a time bomb. I always prefer a normaly aspirated engine, though I know could not be moded for much gains.
I keep my cars and I look after them, so reliability is important for me. a V8 BMW would naturally be faster than the vast majority of cars on the road including many turbo powered, so I say go for a normally aspirated whenever you can and leave the Turbos for boy racers and the likes.
I keep my cars and I look after them, so reliability is important for me. a V8 BMW would naturally be faster than the vast majority of cars on the road including many turbo powered, so I say go for a normally aspirated whenever you can and leave the Turbos for boy racers and the likes.
It's just the way it is with petrol cost in the US reaching $4.00 a gallon and I am sure more in UK.
UNLESS, BMW, Benz, Audi agree to lay off the HP war among themselves. then we all can go to N/A 200HP cars and live happily ever after.
Even my co-worker is looking at Acura RDX with turbo in it and rumor has it the next V8 from BMW will be bi-turbo as well, hence the name 555i is laready trademarked by BMW. The last digit of "5" indicate force induction per BMW nomenclature.
Not to mention, Audi has been rumored to take back the turbos war from BMW, Audi has been looked down as under-power now with N54 from BMW roaming the roads.
11-03-2007, 09:12 AM
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11-03-2007, 10:01 AM
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I disagree with turbo 6s, etc being the downfall of V8s. You've got to respect the performance of the little motors but look at all the high end supercars & AMG models. Just like they said PCs will replace mainframes. It just hasn't happened. V8s (and mainframes) still have their place and if you REALLY need performance, apply the same tricks that make the I4 & I6 turbos to a V8 and have something realy special. Granted they cost a lot more (just like mainframes) but you get more.
As an aside for illustration, HP just announced a WINTEL server achieved a 400,000 TPMC with 4 quad core chips. Impressive and 1/2 the cost of a 400,000 TPMC IBM P570 UNIX server. However, the P570 16 core server gets 1,600,000 TPMC (4x per core) and the top IBM P595 64 core server gets 4,000,000 TPMC. If you NEED the power, you still have to go with the bigger iron. IBM mainframes aren't even tested with TPMC. I wonder what they do?
As an aside for illustration, HP just announced a WINTEL server achieved a 400,000 TPMC with 4 quad core chips. Impressive and 1/2 the cost of a 400,000 TPMC IBM P570 UNIX server. However, the P570 16 core server gets 1,600,000 TPMC (4x per core) and the top IBM P595 64 core server gets 4,000,000 TPMC. If you NEED the power, you still have to go with the bigger iron. IBM mainframes aren't even tested with TPMC. I wonder what they do?
11-03-2007, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by the-oneil' post='489026' date='Nov 2 2007, 08:42 AM
I always thought a turbo is a time bomb. I always prefer a normaly aspirated engine, though I know could not be moded for much gains.
I keep my cars and I look after them, so reliability is important for me. a V8 BMW would naturally be faster than the vast majority of cars on the road including many turbo powered, so I say go for a normally aspirated whenever you can and leave the Turbos for boy racers and the likes.
I keep my cars and I look after them, so reliability is important for me. a V8 BMW would naturally be faster than the vast majority of cars on the road including many turbo powered, so I say go for a normally aspirated whenever you can and leave the Turbos for boy racers and the likes.