what handles better i6 or v8
09-03-2009, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pennetta' post='997452' date='Sep 3 2009, 02:30 PM
Guys we are way off base here and don't get sidetracked with weight distribution. I have two questions that you are ignoring:
1. If you added 260 lbs 10 feet above the car, maintaining your weight distribution, would the car still handle as well or worse?
2. If you added 260 lbs to a 535, maintaning your weight distribution, do you think it would handle better or worse?
Just intuitively think about this.
I was an engineer so I have an unfair advantage, but you are confusing yourselves. Why do you think the e60 suspensions are made of aluminum, why is the hood aluminum, the fenders, etc,etc. Its to lessen the weight. Trust me, less weight makes better handling cars, better stopping cars and better accelerating cars.
And you would never add dead weight. The brakes are the same, the transmissions are different but probably weight similar, the exhaust would weight more but its light weight stainless steel, the 550 has lighter weight non-runflats. The majority of the weight, over 225 lbs of it and probably more, is in the engine.
1. If you added 260 lbs 10 feet above the car, maintaining your weight distribution, would the car still handle as well or worse?
2. If you added 260 lbs to a 535, maintaning your weight distribution, do you think it would handle better or worse?
Just intuitively think about this.
I was an engineer so I have an unfair advantage, but you are confusing yourselves. Why do you think the e60 suspensions are made of aluminum, why is the hood aluminum, the fenders, etc,etc. Its to lessen the weight. Trust me, less weight makes better handling cars, better stopping cars and better accelerating cars.
And you would never add dead weight. The brakes are the same, the transmissions are different but probably weight similar, the exhaust would weight more but its light weight stainless steel, the 550 has lighter weight non-runflats. The majority of the weight, over 225 lbs of it and probably more, is in the engine.
I still don't get it and you were an engineer so teach us. I'm a professional pilot so I am very familier with how weight distribution works cuz it's more noticable and severe on an airplane.
And for your number 1 and 2, you are leaving one important part. BMW did not just added weight. They first, put different suspension brakes along with other stuff to compensate the weight. If you keep ignoring this part then you are saying 535 will outhandle M5 since M5 is more heavier than 550. Also, why is supercars weight so much yet handles like a dream? What about Nissan GTR? I believe they weight more than 3800lbs yet have more than 1G on skipad. Why is that? It's all because they TUNE IT TO COMPENSATE THE WEIGHT. They just don't add weight without proper adjustments.
And I beg to differ on you would never add dead weight part. When I fly with Piper seminole, the flight school add extra 50lbs ballast to the rear to make a bit rear heavy and we take'em out when we carry passengers. So never say never. I don't see why cars would be different.
09-03-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CWS530' post='997408' date='Sep 3 2009, 10:06 PM
But which car would handle better if a Republican, atheist, lesbian (who wants to get married and had been artificially inseminted) was giving birth in the back seat? Obviously something should be done with the umbilical cord blood, but her parents are both illegal immigrants. 535 or 550?
You, my friend, have issues... LOL
Tonymac
09-03-2009, 01:51 PM
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Model Year: 2008
Originally Posted by pennetta' post='997452' date='Sep 3 2009, 02:30 PM
Guys we are way off base here and don't get sidetracked with weight distribution. I have two questions that you are ignoring:
1. If you added 260 lbs 10 feet above the car, maintaining your weight distribution, would the car still handle as well or worse?
2. If you added 260 lbs to a 535, maintaning your weight distribution, do you think it would handle better or worse?
Just intuitively think about this.
I was an engineer so I have an unfair advantage, but you are confusing yourselves. Why do you think the e60 suspensions are made of aluminum, why is the hood aluminum, the fenders, etc,etc. Its to lessen the weight. Trust me, less weight makes better handling cars, better stopping cars and better accelerating cars.
And you would never add dead weight. The brakes are the same, the transmissions are different but probably weight similar, the exhaust would weight more but its light weight stainless steel, the 550 has lighter weight non-runflats. The majority of the weight, over 225 lbs of it and probably more, is in the engine.
1. If you added 260 lbs 10 feet above the car, maintaining your weight distribution, would the car still handle as well or worse?
2. If you added 260 lbs to a 535, maintaning your weight distribution, do you think it would handle better or worse?
Just intuitively think about this.
I was an engineer so I have an unfair advantage, but you are confusing yourselves. Why do you think the e60 suspensions are made of aluminum, why is the hood aluminum, the fenders, etc,etc. Its to lessen the weight. Trust me, less weight makes better handling cars, better stopping cars and better accelerating cars.
And you would never add dead weight. The brakes are the same, the transmissions are different but probably weight similar, the exhaust would weight more but its light weight stainless steel, the 550 has lighter weight non-runflats. The majority of the weight, over 225 lbs of it and probably more, is in the engine.
1) We're not talking about adding weight 10 feet above the car. That's obviously a non-sequitur.
2) A Nissan GTR weighs more than the 535 (close to the 550) and will comfortably out-handle either one. Weight in itself, and of itself, is but one part of the equation.
3) You do realize that an M5 engine, with all its added weight due to its very complex valvetrain, weighs only about 500lbs? You're going to struggle to make a convincing case the the V8 is somehow 225lbs or so heavier than the I6 twin turbo engine....
The difference is that the 550 is not identical to the 535 in all respects other than the engine.
09-03-2009, 02:09 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by uheenada' post='997459' date='Sep 3 2009, 05:37 PM
May I then ask you to give me an exact numbers along with calculations why you still think majority of the weight, over 225lbs of it and probably more is in the engine?
I still don't get it and you were an engineer so teach us. I'm a professional pilot so I am very familier with how weight distribution works cuz it's more noticable and severe on an airplane.
And for your number 1 and 2, you are leaving one important part. BMW did not just added weight. They first, put different suspension brakes along with other stuff to compensate the weight. If you keep ignoring this part then you are saying 535 will outhandle M5 since M5 is more heavier than 550. Also, why is supercars weight so much yet handles like a dream? What about Nissan GTR? I believe they weight more than 3800lbs yet have more than 1G on skipad. Why is that? It's all because they TUNE IT TO COMPENSATE THE WEIGHT. They just don't add weight without proper adjustments.
And I beg to differ on you would never add dead weight part. When I fly with Piper seminole, the flight school add extra 50lbs ballast to the rear to make a bit rear heavy and we take'em out when we carry passengers. So never say never. I don't see why cars would be different.
I still don't get it and you were an engineer so teach us. I'm a professional pilot so I am very familier with how weight distribution works cuz it's more noticable and severe on an airplane.
And for your number 1 and 2, you are leaving one important part. BMW did not just added weight. They first, put different suspension brakes along with other stuff to compensate the weight. If you keep ignoring this part then you are saying 535 will outhandle M5 since M5 is more heavier than 550. Also, why is supercars weight so much yet handles like a dream? What about Nissan GTR? I believe they weight more than 3800lbs yet have more than 1G on skipad. Why is that? It's all because they TUNE IT TO COMPENSATE THE WEIGHT. They just don't add weight without proper adjustments.
And I beg to differ on you would never add dead weight part. When I fly with Piper seminole, the flight school add extra 50lbs ballast to the rear to make a bit rear heavy and we take'em out when we carry passengers. So never say never. I don't see why cars would be different.
If you added 260 lbs to your airplane would it handle better or worse? Come on. Are you going to say that a F16 is heavier than a Cessna?
Heres the facts-You have two nearly identical cars, a 535 and a 550. The big difference is the engine where the 550 has over a 50% increase in displacement and two extra cylinders. Would an airplane engine with over a 50% increase in displacement and two more cylinders weigh more?
Because of cost and economies of scale, BMW uses as many of the same parts as they can between all there cars. The transmission are different but both are 6 speeds and for all we know the 535's is heavier, maybe the ash tray weight a little more... but we know for a fact about the engine difference, everything else is a weak speculation.
I'm here to make friends not enemy's but you keep skirting my two questions because you know the answer doesn't support your view. I am trying to walk you through the exercise so you will understand.
The M5 handles better, but if you added 260 more pounds to the M5 it wouldn't handle as well as before. I'm not saying that all lighter cars handle better than all heavier cars. There are other things besides weight, but with the 535/550 they are as close as a comparison as you can get between two cars where the engines are different, don't you agree?
You maybe adding ballast to your plane to help trim the angle of the plane so its more efficient through the air without resorting to control corrections, but cars dont have that problem. But listen, I'm done.
09-03-2009, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pennetta' post='997452' date='Sep 3 2009, 05:30 PM
Guys we are way off base here and don't get sidetracked with weight distribution. I have two questions that you are ignoring:
1. If you added 260 lbs 10 feet above the car, maintaining your weight distribution, would the car still handle as well or worse?
2. If you added 260 lbs to a 535, maintaning your weight distribution, do you think it would handle better or worse?
Just intuitively think about this.
I was an engineer so I have an unfair advantage, but you are confusing yourselves. Why do you think the e60 suspensions are made of aluminum, why is the hood aluminum, the fenders, etc,etc. Its to lessen the weight. Trust me, less weight makes better handling cars, better stopping cars and better accelerating cars.
And you would never add dead weight. The brakes are the same, the transmissions are different but probably weight similar, the exhaust would weight more but its light weight stainless steel, the 550 has lighter weight non-runflats. The majority of the weight, over 225 lbs of it and probably more, is in the engine.
1. If you added 260 lbs 10 feet above the car, maintaining your weight distribution, would the car still handle as well or worse?
2. If you added 260 lbs to a 535, maintaning your weight distribution, do you think it would handle better or worse?
Just intuitively think about this.
I was an engineer so I have an unfair advantage, but you are confusing yourselves. Why do you think the e60 suspensions are made of aluminum, why is the hood aluminum, the fenders, etc,etc. Its to lessen the weight. Trust me, less weight makes better handling cars, better stopping cars and better accelerating cars.
And you would never add dead weight. The brakes are the same, the transmissions are different but probably weight similar, the exhaust would weight more but its light weight stainless steel, the 550 has lighter weight non-runflats. The majority of the weight, over 225 lbs of it and probably more, is in the engine.
We are talking engine weight here. The center of gravity in a car is best low down, if you had two cars with equal mass and everything else being equal having a center of gravity lower would probably handle better as there would be less forces making the car lean. The aluminum in the e60 is mainly in the front to acheive the better weight distribution, this is not the first car to do this. The M3 has a carbon fiber roof to lower it's center of gravity.2. 260 added to a 535 would handle worse and I discussed that in an earlier post, the difference between these two cars is the weight, susupension and engine power. And so we go back to the original question and ask does the different suspension compensate for the extra weight in the car.
I was an engineer too, if you remember moments acting on a beam you can see why that weight from the engine is not concentrated in the front. The engine is set back from the front axel but to be honest I can't figure out how they get that 260lbs to distribute to the back as far as the stated numbers seem to show. The center of mass of the e60 is probably somewhere level with the drivers/passengers seat so yes there is a greater concentration of mass in the front of the car but the whole 260 is not riding on the front axels.
09-03-2009, 02:18 PM
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I respect what you are saying and neither of us have enough information to arrive at a real conclusion. And if we both had all of the info we would come to the same conclusion. It was fun, and I learned that you add ballast in a plane which I never knew. Is it to equal the front to rear attitude so it trims out neutral which makes it more fuel efficient?
09-03-2009, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Brit_in_NJ' post='997498' date='Sep 3 2009, 06:13 PM
1. Why the hell would you do that? We are talking engine weight here. The center of gravity in a car is best low down, if you had two cars with equal mass and everything else being equal having a center of gravity lower would probably handle better as there would be less forces making the car lean. The aluminum in the e60 is mainly in the front to acheive the better weight distribution, this is not the first car to do this. The M3 has a carbon fiber roof to lower it's center of gravity.
2. 260 added to a 535 would handle worse and I discussed that in an earlier post, the difference between these two cars is the weight, susupension and engine power. And so we go back to the original question and ask does the different suspension compensate for the extra weight in the car.
I was an engineer too, if you remember moments acting on a beam you can see why that weight from the engine is not concentrated in the front. The engine is set back from the front axel but to be honest I can't figure out how they get that 260lbs to distribute to the back as far as the stated numbers seem to show. The center of mass of the e60 is probably somewhere level with the drivers/passengers seat so yes there is a greater concentration of mass in the front of the car but the whole 260 is not riding on the front axels.
We are talking engine weight here. The center of gravity in a car is best low down, if you had two cars with equal mass and everything else being equal having a center of gravity lower would probably handle better as there would be less forces making the car lean. The aluminum in the e60 is mainly in the front to acheive the better weight distribution, this is not the first car to do this. The M3 has a carbon fiber roof to lower it's center of gravity.2. 260 added to a 535 would handle worse and I discussed that in an earlier post, the difference between these two cars is the weight, susupension and engine power. And so we go back to the original question and ask does the different suspension compensate for the extra weight in the car.
I was an engineer too, if you remember moments acting on a beam you can see why that weight from the engine is not concentrated in the front. The engine is set back from the front axel but to be honest I can't figure out how they get that 260lbs to distribute to the back as far as the stated numbers seem to show. The center of mass of the e60 is probably somewhere level with the drivers/passengers seat so yes there is a greater concentration of mass in the front of the car but the whole 260 is not riding on the front axels.
09-03-2009, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pennetta' post='997510' date='Sep 3 2009, 06:22 PM
Its funny how many technical people have BMW's. The MB customers only discuss where to put more cup holders.
09-03-2009, 07:14 PM
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FYI, the 3.0 TT is a cast iron block. The 4.8 V8 is aluminum. I bet the weight difference between the two motors isn't as much as one thinks. Don't forget the weight of the turbos and intercooler as well.
What about the exhaust. If heavier in the 550i, that would add weight to the rear of the car. I know for a fact the 550i mufflers are huge and heavy.
I checked the brakes on realoem. The 550i and 535i have identical calipers and size of rotors. Note the only differences between equipment is leather and the premium pkg is standard in the 550i. Also note both weight figures and distribution are from standard models, no sport package.
Bottom line, I bet the 535i probably has a slightly lighter feel handling-wise but it would not necessarily feel more "nose heavy".
Plus if comparing sport package equiped cars, the 550i has a wheel/tire/suspension advantage that probably makes up for the wieght difference. Just like the M5 can out-handle the 550i, the 550i could out handle the 535i. Although, a real world test is necessary. Any volunteers?
What about the exhaust. If heavier in the 550i, that would add weight to the rear of the car. I know for a fact the 550i mufflers are huge and heavy.
I checked the brakes on realoem. The 550i and 535i have identical calipers and size of rotors. Note the only differences between equipment is leather and the premium pkg is standard in the 550i. Also note both weight figures and distribution are from standard models, no sport package.
Bottom line, I bet the 535i probably has a slightly lighter feel handling-wise but it would not necessarily feel more "nose heavy".
Plus if comparing sport package equiped cars, the 550i has a wheel/tire/suspension advantage that probably makes up for the wieght difference. Just like the M5 can out-handle the 550i, the 550i could out handle the 535i. Although, a real world test is necessary. Any volunteers?
