what handles better i6 or v8
09-01-2009, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard in NC' post='995414' date='Sep 1 2009, 09:54 PM
Not always. An instructor in my E39 M5 caught a Civic with coil-overs in the twisties at Roebling Road. We then passed it on the short straight and ran away from it down the main straight.
09-02-2009, 05:08 PM
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I don't know the actual answer but it also depends on what "handling" means; on a road course, on a g-pad circle, a gymkhana. The 535 sports stay pretty level in a turn I can think that the MSport suspension would be any flatter and its available in the 535 and 550 so it doesn't matter. They do have different tires so the contact patch will probably favor one over the other. The extra 250 lbs of the 550 is a penalty, especially since its over the front wheels. The suspension setup, its tendency to oversteer/understeer, would affect the results. Only testing will reveal an answer.
09-02-2009, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pennetta' post='996491' date='Sep 2 2009, 06:08 PM
The extra 250 lbs of the 550 is a penalty, especially since its over the front wheels. The suspension setup, its tendency to oversteer/understeer, would affect the results. Only testing will reveal an answer.
The 535's weight distribution is 51.8% front/48.2% rear, the 550 is 51.7% front/48.3% rear (both with steptronic, the weight distribution for the manual transmission is broadly the same). The 550 is obviously a bit heavier, but the extra weight is distributed evenly over the car.
Also, as you say, BMW's do tend to be set to naturally understeer (it's easier for the car and for most drivers to correct if they run out of talent). Porsche does much the same thing as BMW, the 911 is also set up to understeer out of the box but if you want to you can correct the handling and return it to broadly neutral with little more than an alignment (or a change in the control arms).
09-02-2009, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='996538' date='Sep 2 2009, 10:18 PM
That's not quite right, the extra weight on a 550 isn't over the front wheels - the 535 and 550 are virtually identical in terms of weight distribution.
The 535's weight distribution is 51.8% front/48.2% rear, the 550 is 51.7% front/48.3% rear (both with steptronic, the weight distribution for the manual transmission is broadly the same). The 550 is obviously a bit heavier, but the extra weight is distributed evenly over the car.
Also, as you say, BMW's do tend to be set to naturally understeer (it's easier for the car and for most drivers to correct if they run out of talent). Porsche does much the same thing as BMW, the 911 is also set up to understeer out of the box but if you want to you can correct the handling and return it to broadly neutral with little more than an alignment (or a change in the control arms).
The 535's weight distribution is 51.8% front/48.2% rear, the 550 is 51.7% front/48.3% rear (both with steptronic, the weight distribution for the manual transmission is broadly the same). The 550 is obviously a bit heavier, but the extra weight is distributed evenly over the car.
Also, as you say, BMW's do tend to be set to naturally understeer (it's easier for the car and for most drivers to correct if they run out of talent). Porsche does much the same thing as BMW, the 911 is also set up to understeer out of the box but if you want to you can correct the handling and return it to broadly neutral with little more than an alignment (or a change in the control arms).
09-02-2009, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by pennetta' post='996589' date='Sep 2 2009, 08:06 PM
When you sit in the drivers seat your weight doesn't just go to the left front wheel. The 550 extra weight is in the front but will add pressure to the rear wheels as well. Inertia will be tougher to overcome with the extra weight, especially in the front.
The bottom line is that general point I called you on remains - the 535 and 550 actually have identical weight distribution. The 550 is no more nose-heavy, relatively speaking, than a 535 - and any suggestion that the impact of the 550's extra weight is concentrated up front is flat out wrong.
If what you were suggesting were true, the 550 would inevitably have a nose-heavy bias in its weight distribution. As it stands, relative to a 535, it doesn't. Unless, of course, BMW has found a way to defy the laws of physics... Audi, for example, does tend to pack a lot of extra weight up front due to their engine placement and the Quattro hardware - and that extra weight up front is very clearly reflected in their typical weight distribution.
09-02-2009, 08:48 PM
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Right.... So you claim that 550's extra weight is concentrated up front, but it somehow manages to create a lesser net impact, pound for pound, on the rear axles than the 535???
The bottom line is that general point I called you on remains - the 535 and 550 actually have identical weight distribution. The 550 is no more nose-heavy, relatively speaking, than a 535 - and any suggestion that the impact of the 550's extra weight is concentrated up front is flat out wrong.
If what you were suggesting were true, the 550 would inevitably have a nose-heavy bias in its weight distribution. As it stands, relative to a 535, it doesn't. Unless, of course, BMW has found a way to defy the laws of physics... Audi, for example, does tend to pack a lot of extra weight up front due to their engine placement and the Quattro hardware - and that extra weight up front is very clearly reflected in their typical weight distribution.
The bottom line is that general point I called you on remains - the 535 and 550 actually have identical weight distribution. The 550 is no more nose-heavy, relatively speaking, than a 535 - and any suggestion that the impact of the 550's extra weight is concentrated up front is flat out wrong.
If what you were suggesting were true, the 550 would inevitably have a nose-heavy bias in its weight distribution. As it stands, relative to a 535, it doesn't. Unless, of course, BMW has found a way to defy the laws of physics... Audi, for example, does tend to pack a lot of extra weight up front due to their engine placement and the Quattro hardware - and that extra weight up front is very clearly reflected in their typical weight distribution.
Although the weight distribution is more or less the same the weights are different. When moving the force of the car's center of gravity shifts depending on acceleration, decelleration and latteral forces. Therefore when braking into a corner there is more weight transfer to the front of the 550 than the 535. I don't think Pennetta was saying the 550's weight was concentrated up front but the transfer to the front of the car when decellerating and turning probably has a bigger effect on the handling than the weight transfer to the rear when accelerating since that helps with traction.
09-02-2009, 09:19 PM
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When you sit in the drivers seat your weight doesn't just go to the left front wheel. The 550 extra weight is in the front but will add pressure to the rear wheels as well. Inertia will be tougher to overcome with the extra weight, especially in the front.
Originally Posted by pennetta' post='996491' date='Sep 2 2009, 06:08 PM
I don't know the actual answer but it also depends on what "handling" means; on a road course, on a g-pad circle, a gymkhana. The 535 sports stay pretty level in a turn I can think that the MSport suspension would be any flatter and its available in the 535 and 550 so it doesn't matter. They do have different tires so the contact patch will probably favor one over the other. The extra 250 lbs of the 550 is a penalty, especially since its over the front wheels. The suspension setup, its tendency to oversteer/understeer, would affect the results. Only testing will reveal an answer.
09-03-2009, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='996687' date='Sep 3 2009, 01:19 AM
He's made that specific claim at least twice...
I'm not getting enough sleep to read and remember all the posts 
09-03-2009, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Brit_in_NJ' post='997133' date='Sep 3 2009, 10:18 AM
I stand corrected... I'm not getting enough sleep to read and remember all the posts
I'm not getting enough sleep to read and remember all the posts