Ummm Have i been royally *****d
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='389583' date='Feb 10 2007, 12:10 PM
Just a credible explanation would suffice. And I don't think it's down to tax.
ABC
ABC
Usually, Member States applying no, or low RT, compensate revenue losses by higher fuel tax levels. With the only exception of the UK, they all apply lower tax levels on diesel, traditionally used by commercial vehicles. Diesel is taxed on average about 140 EUR/1000 litres lower than unleaded petrol [my emphasis].
This difference in taxation on diesel would no longer be justifiable if taxation on diesel used as fuel for commercial uses, was de-coupled from taxation of diesel for private use. The Commission has already supported the view that the excise duty on diesel, used as fuel for private cars, should be gradually aligned to the excise duty imposed on unleaded petrol.
This difference in taxation on diesel would no longer be justifiable if taxation on diesel used as fuel for commercial uses, was de-coupled from taxation of diesel for private use. The Commission has already supported the view that the excise duty on diesel, used as fuel for private cars, should be gradually aligned to the excise duty imposed on unleaded petrol.
Unleaded € 1.16 /l
Diesel € 0.996 /l
it may seem that the differential over the last five years has not changed much...
Edit: I screwed up the prices. Re-checked on a site, and it seems the 0.87 must have been CNG or whatever, as Diesel should be ~€ 0.85 + TVA@19%. Current prices in the post are "lowest in Paris region"
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Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='389599' date='Feb 10 2007, 01:40 PM
But it seems it is. This document from the EU on levels of tax on passenger cars is dated 2002,
24 Feb 2003
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-offic...xt/30224w52.htm
and more from 28 May 2004
http://www.transport2000.org.uk/news/maint...wsArticleID=168
ABC
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='389600' date='Feb 10 2007, 01:49 PM
Seems it isn't:
24 Feb 2003
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-offic...xt/30224w52.htm
and more from 28 May 2004
http://www.transport2000.org.uk/news/maint...wsArticleID=168
ABC
24 Feb 2003
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-offic...xt/30224w52.htm
and more from 28 May 2004
http://www.transport2000.org.uk/news/maint...wsArticleID=168
ABC
[the]harmonis[ation of] the taxation of diesel fuel for transport by all modes
The only European Commission proposal for full harmonisation of duty rates for diesel fuel used in transport relates to diesel fuel used by lorries over 16 tonnes, buses and coaches [my emphasis]. The proposal is that member states should bring their duty rates for such diesel closer together to reach a harmonised rate by 2010 of Euro350 per 1,000 litres[...]. The Government have submitted an Explanatory Memorandum on this proposal [...] which set out our opposition to it. That opposition is shared by nearly all member states, so the directive cannot be adopted in its present form
The second document refers to levels of duty only in the UK, noting that they have increased by the same amount (or were planned to increase by the same amount). The only reference to other countries - quoting a 2001 source - says:
Fuel duty is higher in the UK than most other EU countries but the full basket of motoring taxes, including fuel duty, purchase tax, VED and road tolls, is about average.
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Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='389603' date='Feb 10 2007, 02:11 PM
I fail to see what those two have got to do with...levels of duty only in the UK, noting that they have increased by the same amount (or were planned to increase by the same amount)....fuel duty on Diesel... is fixed at the same level as on petrol.
So why was diesel 5p a litre cheaper than unleaded 5 years ago and now is about 3 or 4p more expensive?
It can't cost 8p a litre more to manufacture (considering what small proportion of the pump price is wholesale pretax price).
ABC
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='389615' date='Feb 10 2007, 10:02 AM
Exactly.
So why was diesel 5p a litre cheaper than unleaded 5 years ago and now is about 3 or 4p more expensive?
It can't cost 8p a litre more to manufacture (considering what small proportion of the pump price is wholesale pretax price).
ABC
So why was diesel 5p a litre cheaper than unleaded 5 years ago and now is about 3 or 4p more expensive?
It can't cost 8p a litre more to manufacture (considering what small proportion of the pump price is wholesale pretax price).
ABC
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Originally Posted by the-oneil' post='389621' date='Feb 10 2007, 03:21 PM
I always thought diesel must be cheaper than petrol as it is more crude (if that's indeed the right word) and therefore cheaper to produce. Other EU countries has the diesel cheaper than petrol and therefore it makes even more sense to drive diesel, in the UK the fuel saving from a diesel is to a small degree ofset by the 5% increase in the diesel price over petrol.
As for diesel being 5% more expensive being offset by its more efficient combustibility (and consequent economy) of course that's what the price setters want punters to think about and line their coffers even more.
ABC
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='389626' date='Feb 10 2007, 03:28 PM
High sulphur (heavy) diesel is cheaper to produce than low sulphur (City) diesel but neither require the refining that petrol does. It IS a different process and one of the arguments I've heard is that UK diesel production capacity is insufficient to meet increasing demand so 'ready-made' diesel has to be imported. Hmmmm...
As for diesel being 5% more expensive being offset by its more efficient combustibility (and consequent economy) of course that's what the price setters want punters to think about and line their coffers even more.
As for diesel being 5% more expensive being offset by its more efficient combustibility (and consequent economy) of course that's what the price setters want punters to think about and line their coffers even more.
Fuel is a relatively inelastic product and because of this, usually, governments have to intervene to regulate prices.
What I don't understand is... is the UK government just standing idly by or are they the ones supporting and benefitting from expensive diesel?
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='389615' date='Feb 10 2007, 03:02 PM
So why was diesel 5p a litre cheaper than unleaded 5 years ago and now is about 3 or 4p more expensive?
It can't cost 8p a litre more to manufacture (considering what small proportion of the pump price is wholesale pretax price).
ABC
It can't cost 8p a litre more to manufacture (considering what small proportion of the pump price is wholesale pretax price).
ABC
However, it seems that a significant decrease (5p) in Feb 05 in the price of unleaded was not matched by Diesel, and the two have been moving in parallel 4-5 p apart since. The interesting thing is that the same thing is happening in other countries - see here for historical prices in 35 or so countries. From late '04 - early 05 Diesel prices have risen more than unleaded anywhere in the Euro big 5, and the historical differential is being eroded.
Either the conspiracy is global (possible, and even more likely given who controls pre-tax price), or greater demand for Diesel is straining the ability to produce (or it is generating excess capacity in petrol production), or the effective cost of producing ULS fuel is higher for Diesel than for Petrol. I wonder if the fact that the US has recently moved over to ULSD (officially completed mid-October 2006) has anything to do with this?
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Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='389644' date='Feb 10 2007, 04:36 PM
I can't say I have noticed Diesel in the UK ever being cheaper than unleaded. Neither has the International Road Transport Union.
Either the conspiracy is global (possible, and even more likely given who controls pre-tax price), or greater demand for Diesel is straining the ability to produce (or it is generating excess capacity in petrol production), or the effective cost of producing ULS fuel is higher for Diesel than for Petrol.
I wonder if the fact that the US has recently moved over to ULSD (officially completed mid-October 2006) has anything to do with this?
11. Petrol prices rose from 59p/l in 1990 to 69.4p/l in 2002 (in 2000 prices), for a real increase of 18%. Diesel rose from 54.4p/l to 71.5p/l over the same period, a rise of 32%. This differential is due to the fact that prior to 1994 diesel was taxed at a lower rate than was petrol. Excise duties were then equalised for unleaded petrol and diesel in November 1994, although the duty on leaded petrol remained somewhat above that on diesel, but such petrol accounted for a declining proportion of petrol sales thereafter.
ABC
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You said "5 years ago". I found data that goes back nearly 10 years, and then you complain that that's not far back enough... You are starting to sound like my wife. Or my clients. ![Big Grin](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/biggrin.gif)
My point about the US is really about global capacity. If US demand for ULSD is rising, so will prices - globally, since a) it's a globally-traded commodity and b) the US is by far the largest market. Whether there is a "fair" rationale for the price rising, or whether we are being shafted, I cannot say. But at least if we are being shafted so is everybody else in Europe. (meagre satisfaction)
![Big Grin](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/biggrin.gif)
My point about the US is really about global capacity. If US demand for ULSD is rising, so will prices - globally, since a) it's a globally-traded commodity and b) the US is by far the largest market. Whether there is a "fair" rationale for the price rising, or whether we are being shafted, I cannot say. But at least if we are being shafted so is everybody else in Europe. (meagre satisfaction)