needforspeed

Fancy pedals mate !

For proper heel and toe action the ball of you foot should be hard on the brake and your heel should rock over onto the bottom of the accelerator pedal (watch the vid again and see what the right foot does on the downshifts)

IMO in BMW's the offset pedal position and the long, floor fixed accelerator make heel and toeing quite easy although the pedals are not particularly close together (as they are in italian sportscars).

I've tried it a bit though and to be honest the way I drive it makes sod all difference.

During my only ever track outing I drove a porsche 911 and made full use of the engine braking on downshifts - at the end of the main 'straight' it actually briefly locked the wheels on the change from 4th to 3rd AND from 3rd to 2nd. I guess that wouldn;'t have happend if I'd heeled and toed, but I was too busy concentrating on not crashing

jet190rs

Huh? If you can double clutch, then you already know how to heel and toe. Double clutching is more complicated than heel and toe. Nowadays, ppl usually learn how to heel and toe before learning how to double clutch. Perhaps you think double clutching doesn't involve braking, like when you downshift to pass someone? Here they teach you that both double clutch and heel and toe include braking during the whole procedure.

BTW, I think the pedals are setup pretty well in the E60 for heel and toe. The brake and throttle pedals are pretty close toegether, even closer together than in my Porsche.

Fin535dA

My problem is that my right foot is not that big (which is odd because I'm 6'2 / 188cm) and I reckon the pedals in the Citroen are quite far apart from one another. Oh, and, my right foot hasn't have enough space to rock the foot so that I could apply pressure to the brake pedal unvaried. OR then I just suck at this

I guess I just have to practise heel-and-toe while parked in garage

What shoes would you recommend btw, if it is of any particular help?

EDIT: I'm so confused about double cluthing now. Isn't it just changing down gears with rev-matching? Doesn't the procedure go something like this: You're in 4th, you depress the cluth, move the lever forward to N, release the clutch and almost simultaneously blip the throttle to match the engine revs with the 3rd gear revs, depress the clutch again, move the lever forward to 3rd, all these steps in a fast, fluid motion. Right? Or? Help me!

needforspeed

Forget about double clutching - it's not the right term and refers to old gearboxes WITHOUT synchromesh. Unless your car is 60 years old you don't need to know how to double de-clutch.

What I think you are talking about is racing / rally gear changes.

Downshift (heel and toe):

Brake HARD, dip the clutch, pop it out of gear, roll your foot onto the accelerator while still braking (heel and toe), engage the new gear, lift off the clutch, accelerate HARD out of the corner (note you only de-clutch ONCE)

The advantage is that your matching the revs of the wheels and tranny with the engine revs and hence change more smoothly, avoid locking up the wheels and are ready to get the power on faster when you exit the corner.

I think this probably also helps with weight shifting in rear wheel drive cars as well (like left foot braking?)

Also, on the track you are trying to keep the car in the peak powerband, so are changing down when ordinarily you wouldn't bother. What you want to avoid is the sudden lurching engine braking you generally experience if you drop down to 3rd gear in a normal car at 70mph.

Upshift:

Accelerate HARD. Pop into neutral, ease off on the revs, pop into gear, accelerate HARD.

If you wish you can also use the clutch

Racing gearboxes are specially designed with all this in mind. Normal gearboxes are designed to avoid you needing to think about it.

I've only been on the track once and was too busy trying not to kill myself to do any of this.

jet190rs

Yes, but you should be braking while you are blipping the throttle. So double clutching is just the same as heel and toe, except for going into N and the 2nd clutching. At least this is how they define double clutching at the Skip Barber Race School...

Double Clutch =
Brake (and keep braking during entire procedure)
Disengage clutch
Shift to N
Engage clutch
Blip throttle
Disengage clutch
Shift to lower gear
Engage clutch
Release brake

Heel and toe =
Brake (and keep braking during entire procedure)
Disengage clutch
Blip throttle
Shift to lower gear
Engage clutch
Release brake

And yes, NeedForSpeed is correct. Double clutching is only needed on cars without synchromesh (i.e. some race cars). You can do double clutch on a regular car, but you are doing some extra steps. Its good practice if you think you'll be driving a certain race car at some point, so just want to learn to double clutch. You do need to at least do heel and toe on all cars though. And rally shifting (power shifting) is entirely different.

xkgt

[Double Clutch =
Brake (and keep braking during entire procedure)
Disengage clutch
Shift to N
Engage clutch
Blip throttle
Disengage clutch
Shift to lower gear
Engage clutch
Release brake

Heel and toe =
Brake (and keep braking during entire procedure)
Disengage clutch
Blip throttle
Shift to lower gear
Engage clutch
Release brake

[/quote]


I think this is the best explanation - I have and drive regularly some 50s Jaguars - they came with the well known Moss "crash box" in which 1st was not synchronized - its a gearbox that is happier with slow precise changes - or you would need to double-clutch - otherwise you will hear the grinding noises (and thats where the crash name comes from) - while double-clutching you also blip the throtle to match revs - in new gearboxes is not needed

All steptronics I have driven, including my current one, have the blip-throtle on down shifts - it does provide a sporty feel. I don't know if it is actually more efficient as old automatic transmissions would probably just slide on a downshift until the revs were matched. Remember old cars you would select a lower gear and the car would feel out of gear for while until the lower gear engaged!

Fin535dA

Those should clear things out Thanks.

I never knew the term "double clutching" included braking as well Oh well, I won't bother with the extra steps, I'll just stick to heel-and-toe once I learn it

needforspeed

Good explanation - what race cars require double de-clutching though and to what end? It seems to me that this would just slow the downshift?

jet190rs

Skip Barber's cars, but predominately older ones. Nowadays most race cars are sequential, everything from the Star Mazda series up to F1. However, even in some of these sequentials you don't need the clutch at all during upshifts, but you do need to double clutch for downshifts. (i.e. some Ricardo transmissions)

Theoretically, double clutching seems slow. But if you practice enough, you'll be able to do it very very quickly, as quickly as a regular downshift. Also, keep in mind double clutching was required when cars didn't have synchomesh, so it was born from a time when ppl didn't have a choice.

Today, no one really needs to know how to double clutch, so its something of a lost art - like custom tailored suits or custom cars from couchbuilders.

needforspeed

I'm aware that many racing gearboxes are adapted to mean clutching is not required on upshifts (although this is the case with all boxes if you are skilled enough)

Whats the advantage to the driver of having no synchro and hence needing to double declutch on the way down?

I understand the value of heel and toe changes - but the synchro bit seems a bit 'odd'.