Road & Track: Comparison Test: 2009 Cadillac CTS-V vs. 2008 BMW M5
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='657932' date='Aug 30 2008, 01:56 PM
A .5 second advantage, at the already stellar performance levels achieved by the M5, can indeed be a big deal. The CTS-V is turning in performance numbers that match or better some incredibly exotic hardware. The CTS-V is broadly as fast as a 997 Turbo and a recent model Gallardo. The .5 second advantage with the CTS-V is carried over to the 0-60 sprint.
Only an idiot focuses on the badge. An enthusiast focuses on engineering and performance and will appreciate that both the CTS-V and the M5 deliver performance that commands respect.
There is no reason whatsoever to doubt that the LSA powerplant in the CTS-V will be any less reliable than the S85B50. The different derivations of the LS powerplants are reasonably bombproof. For all its faults, two areas where GM does deliver the goods are its top end powerplants and its transmissions. In fact, you will find GM transmissions in some BMW hardware.
Only an idiot focuses on the badge. An enthusiast focuses on engineering and performance and will appreciate that both the CTS-V and the M5 deliver performance that commands respect.
There is no reason whatsoever to doubt that the LSA powerplant in the CTS-V will be any less reliable than the S85B50. The different derivations of the LS powerplants are reasonably bombproof. For all its faults, two areas where GM does deliver the goods are its top end powerplants and its transmissions. In fact, you will find GM transmissions in some BMW hardware.
I used to work in GM powertrain as an intern a few years ago, and you will find GM parts in some of the BMW transmissions. We always had a few 3 series around for durability purposes.
And as some of the above posters have mentioned...The new CTS/CTS-V is leaps and bounds improved from its predecessors. Its interior has improved the most and especially in the seating department and the whole package flows a lot better and is not as Walmart looking as the previous version was. I think that it will make a lot of people think twice before they buy another car, where before that would have NEVER happened. Even if you only get a few of those people to buy the car, you have achieved success.
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='657932' date='Aug 31 2008, 02:56 AM
Only an idiot focuses on the badge. An enthusiast focuses on engineering and performance and will appreciate that both the CTS-V and the M5 deliver performance that commands respect.
There is no reason whatsoever to doubt that the LSA powerplant in the CTS-V will be any less reliable than the S85B50. The different derivations of the LS powerplants are reasonably bombproof. For all its faults, two areas where GM does deliver the goods are its top end powerplants and its transmissions. In fact, you will find GM transmissions in some BMW hardware.
There is no reason whatsoever to doubt that the LSA powerplant in the CTS-V will be any less reliable than the S85B50. The different derivations of the LS powerplants are reasonably bombproof. For all its faults, two areas where GM does deliver the goods are its top end powerplants and its transmissions. In fact, you will find GM transmissions in some BMW hardware.
So... should we expect to see a ZR-1 Corvette replace your Porsche 911 Carrera S in the near future? Perhaps a Cadillac CTS-V to go along with it in the garage?
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Quite frankly, on a 2:30 second track (which is very big), less than a 0.5 advantage (or disadvantage) is really negligible. Not because I am coming from an M5, but because both of these cars are capable and it is really a driver's race at that point. Is Henricy a better driver than Auberlen? Auberlen hasn't been behind the wheel of an M5 for years, according to R&T... and he actually took a 6 speed and an SMG to see which one suited him better... he took the SMG. Henricy has been the test driver for the new CTS-V in very recent times.
There is a source that Hans Stuck, legendary BMW driver and champion, drove a stock M5 around the ring in 7:52 (from the M5board), which bests Henricy's time with the new CTS-V by about 7 seconds (which had some interior mods like a 5 point harness and IIRC, a cage, which helps plant the driver in better and stiffens up the chassis [cage]).
However, with specs and dimensions this close, it may just come down to bang for the buck and preference. IMO, while the caddy has a much improved interior, the new CTS [inside] looks very Timex-watch like... with the Indiglo, 6 different materials and blingy-type dash. I'll take the simpler, classier and more understated interior.
And with the M5 past its half way mark in it's LC, and coupled with the fact that the CTS-V isn't even out yet.... GM is still playing catch-up. Actually, with all the trash Bob Lutz has been talking (since a year ago) about how the new CTS-V is "going to suck the doors off the M5...", well... please try again a another 5 years, buddy.
There is a source that Hans Stuck, legendary BMW driver and champion, drove a stock M5 around the ring in 7:52 (from the M5board), which bests Henricy's time with the new CTS-V by about 7 seconds (which had some interior mods like a 5 point harness and IIRC, a cage, which helps plant the driver in better and stiffens up the chassis [cage]).
However, with specs and dimensions this close, it may just come down to bang for the buck and preference. IMO, while the caddy has a much improved interior, the new CTS [inside] looks very Timex-watch like... with the Indiglo, 6 different materials and blingy-type dash. I'll take the simpler, classier and more understated interior.
And with the M5 past its half way mark in it's LC, and coupled with the fact that the CTS-V isn't even out yet.... GM is still playing catch-up. Actually, with all the trash Bob Lutz has been talking (since a year ago) about how the new CTS-V is "going to suck the doors off the M5...", well... please try again a another 5 years, buddy.
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Originally Posted by zen68' post='657438' date='Aug 29 2008, 02:32 PM
Yes, it's fast alright. I'm just not sold on the styling, too angular for me. Personally, I think GM should focus on making better quality and fuel efficient cars instead of spending money on a niche product.
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='657932' date='Aug 30 2008, 10:56 AM
Only an idiot focuses on the badge. An enthusiast focuses on engineering and performance and will appreciate that both the CTS-V and the M5 deliver performance that commands respect.
There is no reason whatsoever to doubt that the LSA powerplant in the CTS-V will be any less reliable than the S85B50. The different derivations of the LS powerplants are reasonably bombproof. For all its faults, two areas where GM does deliver the goods are its top end powerplants and its transmissions. In fact, you will find GM transmissions in some BMW hardware.
There is no reason whatsoever to doubt that the LSA powerplant in the CTS-V will be any less reliable than the S85B50. The different derivations of the LS powerplants are reasonably bombproof. For all its faults, two areas where GM does deliver the goods are its top end powerplants and its transmissions. In fact, you will find GM transmissions in some BMW hardware.
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Originally Posted by zen68' post='657438' date='Aug 29 2008, 02:32 PM
Here is the latest review on Edmunds. They claim that the CTS-V is THE quickest/best handling production sedan ever been tested.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...photopanel..1.*
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...photopanel..1.*
Looks like the clear winner to me. At a huge discount too, +$20k less.
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Well looks like we have at least 5 or 6 of you who should be trading in your 5 series very shortly for the new CTS or the V version. Good luck with it.
The point of .5 secs difference was that going around a track of that size one corner that could've went a tad smoother can be the difference. Like I said means really nothing. 3+ secs now that has alot more to do with the car then just a slight wheel spin coming out of a turn or slightly bad line coming in or out of a turn. Didn't think it was that hard to understand. Best drivers in the world don't put up the same lap times exactly over and over.
To the people saying the straight line performance is on line with new Lambo and 997 turbo then it just goes to show you in reality the M5 is a much better track car (I haven't seen the straight line numbers). But under those specs then the CTS-V should really just pull out of the corners and really open up the distance on a straight way. So being in a half second of each other it tells me the M5 is out handling the CTS-V quite easily in the corners.
Idiots focus on the badge????? Come on people. Most things in life you purchase part of it comes down to "name brand". Anyone on here that is a business owner knows your business needs to create a "brand" not just be a name to be successful. Keep living in your fantasy world if you don't think a badge means anything.
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The point of .5 secs difference was that going around a track of that size one corner that could've went a tad smoother can be the difference. Like I said means really nothing. 3+ secs now that has alot more to do with the car then just a slight wheel spin coming out of a turn or slightly bad line coming in or out of a turn. Didn't think it was that hard to understand. Best drivers in the world don't put up the same lap times exactly over and over.
To the people saying the straight line performance is on line with new Lambo and 997 turbo then it just goes to show you in reality the M5 is a much better track car (I haven't seen the straight line numbers). But under those specs then the CTS-V should really just pull out of the corners and really open up the distance on a straight way. So being in a half second of each other it tells me the M5 is out handling the CTS-V quite easily in the corners.
Idiots focus on the badge????? Come on people. Most things in life you purchase part of it comes down to "name brand". Anyone on here that is a business owner knows your business needs to create a "brand" not just be a name to be successful. Keep living in your fantasy world if you don't think a badge means anything.
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Originally Posted by skylolow' post='658111' date='Aug 30 2008, 04:24 PM
Well looks like we have at least 5 or 6 of you who should be trading in your 5 series very shortly for the new CTS or the V version. Good luck with it.
The point of .5 secs difference was that going around a track of that size one corner that could've went a tad smoother can be the difference. Like I said means really nothing. 3+ secs now that has alot more to do with the car then just a slight wheel spin coming out of a turn or slightly bad line coming in or out of a turn. Didn't think it was that hard to understand.
To the people saying the straight line performance is on line with new Lambo and 997 turbo then it just goes to show you in reality the M5 is a much better track car (I haven't seen the straight line numbers). But under those specs then the CTS-V should really just pull out of the corners and really open up the distance on a straight way. So being in a half second of each other it tells me the M5 is out handling the CTS-V quite easily in the corners.
Idiots focus on the badge????? Come on people. Most things in life you purchase part of it comes down to "name brand". Anyone on here that is a business owner knows your business needs to create a "brand" not just be a name to be successful.
![Cool](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif)
The point of .5 secs difference was that going around a track of that size one corner that could've went a tad smoother can be the difference. Like I said means really nothing. 3+ secs now that has alot more to do with the car then just a slight wheel spin coming out of a turn or slightly bad line coming in or out of a turn. Didn't think it was that hard to understand.
To the people saying the straight line performance is on line with new Lambo and 997 turbo then it just goes to show you in reality the M5 is a much better track car (I haven't seen the straight line numbers). But under those specs then the CTS-V should really just pull out of the corners and really open up the distance on a straight way. So being in a half second of each other it tells me the M5 is out handling the CTS-V quite easily in the corners.
Idiots focus on the badge????? Come on people. Most things in life you purchase part of it comes down to "name brand". Anyone on here that is a business owner knows your business needs to create a "brand" not just be a name to be successful.
You can conclude from the Road & Track and Edmunds tests. The CTS-V had the faster 0-60, 1/4 mile, 60-0 braking, slalom, skidpad, and lap times. It is clearly the better performing car. At a huge discount too, +$20k less.
As far as handling. (edmunds)
M5
slalom - 69.2 mph
skidpad - 0.86 g
CTS-V
slalom - 71.1 mph
skidpad - 0.92 g
So no the M5 is not out handling the CTS-V. It is the opposite. And it won't pull on the straights. CTS-V is 150 lbs heavier so the power-to-weight ratios are very close.
You can spin it all you want, the facts are there. Stock vs stock the CTS-V is a better performer.
Yes the M5 is 3 year old design. But when the next M5 comes out the CTS-V will be at least 2 years old. So if the next M5 beats the CTS-V, it will too be beating an old design. This is the way the automotive market works, in cycles.
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Originally Posted by skylolow' post='658111' date='Aug 30 2008, 04:24 PM
To the people saying the straight line performance is on line with new Lambo and 997 turbo then it just goes to show you in reality the M5 is a much better track car (I haven't seen the straight line numbers). But under those specs then the CTS-V should really just pull out of the corners and really open up the distance on a straight way. So being in a half second of each other it tells me the M5 is out handling the CTS-V quite easily in the corners.
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='658125' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:51 PM
Stoplight acceleration is still pretty important however, as in the US it's pretty much the only performance advantage that an owner of a car of the caliber of an M5 or a CTS-V is really able to realize every day.
I understand that a lot of people have a perception about American made automobiles, which is totally fine. They deserved what they got for slacking off compared to their competition. But now (some think its too late), they are starting to catch up to their foreign counterparts. Its not entirely impossible that they are able build a car that CAN give the foreign cars a run for their money and do so at a competitive price. GM is coming to play ball people. The next M5 will beat the CTS-V in overall performance, but you should take notice that the M5 has another competitior that isnt an Audi or MB.
And EM_5, it may not have 'sucked' the doors off the M5, but it did compete with it. Maybe Bob Lutz spouted off at the mouth, but his prediction wasn't THAT far off.
Now...I'm off take my 535 for a drive.
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