Is is OK to use a different oil?
02-09-2008, 02:07 PM
#21
Contributors
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
My Ride: 2008 535i: June 6th start build, complete June 17th, at NY Port July 5th, at dealer July 10th, took delivery Friday July 13- Plantimum Bronze/Natural Brown Leather/Light Poplar, Sport Package, Sport Auto, Active Steering, Premium Package, CWP & PDC. Dinan Performance Software 384hp & 421 ft/lbs.
Originally Posted by faarcanal' post='529271' date='Feb 9 2008, 02:20 PM
Interesting,
I thought that a multi-grade oil behaved as a mono-grade at both ends of the rating. So, a 0-40 would be as viscous at a 0 grade mono-grade at low temperatures and when hot would be as viscous as a 40 grade mono-grade oil at high temperatures. Effectively giving protection across the temperature ranges at the band of weights indicated.
I also thought that this meant that the problems mentioned by Pennetta are excluded specifically by the design of the oil.
I was unaware that the numbers also indicated an ability or not to get into or separate moving parts.
I thought that a multi-grade oil behaved as a mono-grade at both ends of the rating. So, a 0-40 would be as viscous at a 0 grade mono-grade at low temperatures and when hot would be as viscous as a 40 grade mono-grade oil at high temperatures. Effectively giving protection across the temperature ranges at the band of weights indicated.
I also thought that this meant that the problems mentioned by Pennetta are excluded specifically by the design of the oil.
I was unaware that the numbers also indicated an ability or not to get into or separate moving parts.
And this is just is what I know and I am not an expert, If Castrol has worked with BMW to develop blends that specifically work with BMW engines which makes BMW recommend Castrol why use Mobile 1? I am just saying to follow the specs, weight and recommendations in the owners manual.
02-09-2008, 04:30 PM
#22
Members
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: Current - MY2008 530i comfort access,active steering, HUD, prof nav/TV, bluetootth etc .....
Old - 2006 530i comfort access, active steering, HUD, NAV/TV, Bluetooth
Fair enough.
Thank you, you much more knowledgeable than I, if not an expert.
Thank you, you much more knowledgeable than I, if not an expert.
02-10-2008, 07:54 AM
#23
Contributors
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 07 550 i, mystic blue, black leather, cold weather package, nav, sport, shades, bags, rear heat, V1 hardwired.
05 F350 TD Crew Cab
04 Range Rover HSE
91 964 C4 Cabrio
07 997 Turbo Cabrio
Penneta obviously knows his stuff on this subject, but I would offer a few counterpoints gleaned from my own research and experience. First, the only real advantage synthetic oil offers, in my opinion, is better lubrication on cold starts, period. There was a big study done by Consumer Reports with New York City cabs in 1996 that lasted for two years. The study found little to no additional value to the synthetic oils vs natural. I will say that the study was widely criticized because it may have not included enough real world cold starts, but the comparisons between the same cabs with just different oils was not conclusive regarding engine wear and failures due to lubrication. Synthetic oils also leak much more that natural, due to the molecular construction of the oils. In synthetic oils, all of the molecules are identical in shape and size, where natural oils are not. This leads to increased leaking in some respects, because natural oils will tend to hang up better. Synthetic oils are also harder on certain plastics, because of the PAO content of synthetics.
That being said, in my experience, my 210 came from the factory with natural oil in 1977. I acquired the plane in the mid 80's and after an engine rebuild, I started using Shell's aviation synthetic, called aero shield. I was able to get two 100 hour extensions on rebuild on this engine, that the original did not. I attribute most of this to the cold start abilities of the synthetic oils. All of my Porsches have used the oil, as well as most of the other fleet, with the lone exception being the F-350 diesel.
The cold start protection alone makes the oil worth it to me, but I really balk at the notion that the synthetic oils are that much better in normal driving conditions.
That being said, in my experience, my 210 came from the factory with natural oil in 1977. I acquired the plane in the mid 80's and after an engine rebuild, I started using Shell's aviation synthetic, called aero shield. I was able to get two 100 hour extensions on rebuild on this engine, that the original did not. I attribute most of this to the cold start abilities of the synthetic oils. All of my Porsches have used the oil, as well as most of the other fleet, with the lone exception being the F-350 diesel.
The cold start protection alone makes the oil worth it to me, but I really balk at the notion that the synthetic oils are that much better in normal driving conditions.
02-10-2008, 08:15 AM
#24
Senior Members
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Detroit, USA
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: E46 330, E60 550 on order: Carbon Black/Natural Brown, 6MT.
Originally Posted by studavis' post='529539' date='Feb 10 2008, 11:54 AM
Penneta obviously knows his stuff on this subject, but I would offer a few counterpoints gleaned from my own research and experience. First, the only real advantage synthetic oil offers, in my opinion, is better lubrication on cold starts, period. There was a big study done by Consumer Reports with New York City cabs in 1996 that lasted for two years. The study found little to no additional value to the synthetic oils vs natural. I will say that the study was widely criticized because it may have not included enough real world cold starts, but the comparisons between the same cabs with just different oils was not conclusive regarding engine wear and failures due to lubrication. Synthetic oils also leak much more that natural, due to the molecular construction of the oils. In synthetic oils, all of the molecules are identical in shape and size, where natural oils are not. This leads to increased leaking in some respects, because natural oils will tend to hang up better. Synthetic oils are also harder on certain plastics, because of the PAO content of synthetics.
That being said, in my experience, my 210 came from the factory with natural oil in 1977. I acquired the plane in the mid 80's and after an engine rebuild, I started using Shell's aviation synthetic, called aero shield. I was able to get two 100 hour extensions on rebuild on this engine, that the original did not. I attribute most of this to the cold start abilities of the synthetic oils. All of my Porsches have used the oil, as well as most of the other fleet, with the lone exception being the F-350 diesel.
The cold start protection alone makes the oil worth it to me, but I really balk at the notion that the synthetic oils are that much better in normal driving conditions.
That being said, in my experience, my 210 came from the factory with natural oil in 1977. I acquired the plane in the mid 80's and after an engine rebuild, I started using Shell's aviation synthetic, called aero shield. I was able to get two 100 hour extensions on rebuild on this engine, that the original did not. I attribute most of this to the cold start abilities of the synthetic oils. All of my Porsches have used the oil, as well as most of the other fleet, with the lone exception being the F-350 diesel.
The cold start protection alone makes the oil worth it to me, but I really balk at the notion that the synthetic oils are that much better in normal driving conditions.
An advantage they almost certainly didn't consider in this study is longevity. Synthetic oils do not break down as fast. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
02-10-2008, 08:32 AM
#25
Contributors
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 07 550 i, mystic blue, black leather, cold weather package, nav, sport, shades, bags, rear heat, V1 hardwired.
05 F350 TD Crew Cab
04 Range Rover HSE
91 964 C4 Cabrio
07 997 Turbo Cabrio
Iversonm,
Yes, you are correct, but only at the far end of the oil change cycle, and when the engine is subjected to radical heating/cooling. Under normal conditions, say the soccer mom in the Honda, will never see any benefit from the syn oil over the long haul. In higher compression plants, and under very tough driving, you would see damage with natural oils that you may not see with the fake stuff. Again, I am a strong believer in the fake stuff, I just don't think most people would reap the huge benefits attributed to the synthetic oils.
Yes, you are correct, but only at the far end of the oil change cycle, and when the engine is subjected to radical heating/cooling. Under normal conditions, say the soccer mom in the Honda, will never see any benefit from the syn oil over the long haul. In higher compression plants, and under very tough driving, you would see damage with natural oils that you may not see with the fake stuff. Again, I am a strong believer in the fake stuff, I just don't think most people would reap the huge benefits attributed to the synthetic oils.
02-10-2008, 08:58 AM
#26
Contributors
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2008 535i w/ Sports & Permium Pkg. Silv/Blk
2008 VW R32 w/Nav.
1992 VW Corrado Silv/Blk-retired
2001 530i Sports/Premium-retired
Originally Posted by pennetta' post='529331' date='Feb 9 2008, 06:07 PM
Lets assume your car calls for a straight 30w, putting in 0w-30 does not necessarily satisfy the 30w requirement. In order to get the range from these multi-viscosity oils manufactures mix in additives. These additives make an oil act like a 0w in the cold and like a 30w when its hot but these additives break down over time. Also under higher shear stresses a 0w-30 will not hold up as a "30w" as well as a straight 30w oil. There is a lot that an oil does including shear loads(between sliding components), compression loads(when gear teeth mesh), heat loads, particle suspension(metal bits), resistance to combustion contaminants and special turbo bearing stress (turbos spin sometimes at 100,000 RPM and the oil needs to be there, the turbo bearing temps can exceed many oils capacity (the worst problem is within 0-4 minutes after engine shut down when oil is stagnant on super heated bearings.
And this is just is what I know and I am not an expert, If Castrol has worked with BMW to develop blends that specifically work with BMW engines which makes BMW recommend Castrol why use Mobile 1? I am just saying to follow the specs, weight and recommendations in the owners manual.
And this is just is what I know and I am not an expert, If Castrol has worked with BMW to develop blends that specifically work with BMW engines which makes BMW recommend Castrol why use Mobile 1? I am just saying to follow the specs, weight and recommendations in the owners manual.
02-10-2008, 09:01 AM
#27
Senior Members
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Detroit, USA
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: E46 330, E60 550 on order: Carbon Black/Natural Brown, 6MT.
Originally Posted by studavis' post='529552' date='Feb 10 2008, 12:32 PM
Iversonm,
Yes, you are correct, but only at the far end of the oil change cycle, and when the engine is subjected to radical heating/cooling. Under normal conditions, say the soccer mom in the Honda, will never see any benefit from the syn oil over the long haul. In higher compression plants, and under very tough driving, you would see damage with natural oils that you may not see with the fake stuff. Again, I am a strong believer in the fake stuff, I just don't think most people would reap the huge benefits attributed to the synthetic oils.
Yes, you are correct, but only at the far end of the oil change cycle, and when the engine is subjected to radical heating/cooling. Under normal conditions, say the soccer mom in the Honda, will never see any benefit from the syn oil over the long haul. In higher compression plants, and under very tough driving, you would see damage with natural oils that you may not see with the fake stuff. Again, I am a strong believer in the fake stuff, I just don't think most people would reap the huge benefits attributed to the synthetic oils.
Next, you soccer mom analogy is a bit off. To further the stereotype, carting kids all over the place is *very* hard on engine oil. Such trips are often short distance, and the engine is not able to reach full temperature. Such treatment is far worse than a sustained 90mph run on the freeway. In that instance, the car is at temperature, and making a fairly constant 40-60hp to overcome drag. This is only about 15% of the engines peak power, which is a walk on the park.
02-10-2008, 09:21 AM
#28
Contributors
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Falls Church VA
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MiamiPhill' post='529565' date='Feb 10 2008, 12:58 PM
+1 Well said.
1) Cold Start protection
2) Resistance to high temperature breakdown (I'll explain my experiences below).
3) Longevity
I assume that synthetic, just like normal oils are a concoction of oil and additives. I assume the additives break down (or at least are used up) over time regardless of which oil they are added to. So either way you can only run them as long as either the additives or the base oil hold up.
Over 20 years ago I had a Yamaha 500 cc air-cooled motorcycle with a short stroke large bore 2-cyl engine - 4-cycle air cooled, no less. It revved normally very high - redline at 12,000 RPM. During the summer I always had problems with the engine stalling in traffic and not restarting easily. The electric start strained and the kick starter had so much resistance I often had to let the engine cool for 30 minutes to get it to crank again. It actually felt like the engine was starting to sieze up due to cylinder friction (I assumed oil starvation or breakdown). This was using normal viscosity oils recommended by Yamaha for summer riding. When draining the oil, I'd see it had essentially burned up. Very dark amber from heat oxidation.
After reading about Mobil 1's ability to lube well at high temps, and its advertised resistance to thermal breakdown, I decided to try it in the bike. Problem instantly and permanently solved. I never had the bike stall again in traffic while idling. And re-starting problems after a hot engine shutoff were a thing of the past. The cranking resistance problem was eliminated entirely. And at oil change time, the synthetic didn't appear to have broken down the way mineral oils did. I have to credit this to the superb lubricating and temperature properties of the synthetic oil.
After this discovery, I started using synthetics in my cars and never looked back. I believe the resistance to thermal breakdown at high temperatures is the prime reason to run synthetics in engines equipped with turbochargers. The heat in the turbo would IMHO easily cook regular oils, much as my Yamaha did.
02-10-2008, 09:47 AM
#29
Contributors
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2008 535i w/ Sports & Permium Pkg. Silv/Blk
2008 VW R32 w/Nav.
1992 VW Corrado Silv/Blk-retired
2001 530i Sports/Premium-retired
Originally Posted by jes0331' post='529577' date='Feb 10 2008, 01:21 PM
I've use synthetics for what I thought to be their real strengths:
1) Cold Start protection
2) Resistance to high temperature breakdown (I'll explain my experiences below).
3) Longevity
I assume that synthetic, just like normal oils are a concoction of oil and additives. I assume the additives break down (or at least are used up) over time regardless of which oil they are added to. So either way you can only run them as long as either the additives or the base oil hold up.
Over 20 years ago I had a Yamaha 500 cc air-cooled motorcycle with a short stroke large bore 2-cyl engine - 4-cycle air cooled, no less. It revved normally very high - redline at 12,000 RPM. During the summer I always had problems with the engine stalling in traffic and not restarting easily. The electric start strained and the kick starter had so much resistance I often had to let the engine cool for 30 minutes to get it to crank again. It actually felt like the engine was starting to sieze up due to cylinder friction (I assumed oil starvation or breakdown). This was using normal viscosity oils recommended by Yamaha for summer riding. When draining the oil, I'd see it had essentially burned up. Very dark amber from heat oxidation.
After reading about Mobil 1's ability to lube well at high temps, and its advertised resistance to thermal breakdown, I decided to try it in the bike. Problem instantly and permanently solved. I never had the bike stall again in traffic while idling. And re-starting problems after a hot engine shutoff were a thing of the past. The cranking resistance problem was eliminated entirely. And at oil change time, the synthetic didn't appear to have broken down the way mineral oils did. I have to credit this to the superb lubricating and temperature properties of the synthetic oil.
After this discovery, I started using synthetics in my cars and never looked back.
1) Cold Start protection
2) Resistance to high temperature breakdown (I'll explain my experiences below).
3) Longevity
I assume that synthetic, just like normal oils are a concoction of oil and additives. I assume the additives break down (or at least are used up) over time regardless of which oil they are added to. So either way you can only run them as long as either the additives or the base oil hold up.
Over 20 years ago I had a Yamaha 500 cc air-cooled motorcycle with a short stroke large bore 2-cyl engine - 4-cycle air cooled, no less. It revved normally very high - redline at 12,000 RPM. During the summer I always had problems with the engine stalling in traffic and not restarting easily. The electric start strained and the kick starter had so much resistance I often had to let the engine cool for 30 minutes to get it to crank again. It actually felt like the engine was starting to sieze up due to cylinder friction (I assumed oil starvation or breakdown). This was using normal viscosity oils recommended by Yamaha for summer riding. When draining the oil, I'd see it had essentially burned up. Very dark amber from heat oxidation.
After reading about Mobil 1's ability to lube well at high temps, and its advertised resistance to thermal breakdown, I decided to try it in the bike. Problem instantly and permanently solved. I never had the bike stall again in traffic while idling. And re-starting problems after a hot engine shutoff were a thing of the past. The cranking resistance problem was eliminated entirely. And at oil change time, the synthetic didn't appear to have broken down the way mineral oils did. I have to credit this to the superb lubricating and temperature properties of the synthetic oil.
After this discovery, I started using synthetics in my cars and never looked back.
02-10-2008, 09:53 AM
#30
Contributors
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Falls Church VA
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MiamiPhill' post='529586' date='Feb 10 2008, 01:47 PM
When the warranty period is over then it's ok to do what you want, but why do that now and risk having to fight with them (BMW) if somthing were to go wrong wtih the car & they try to blame it on your oil choice.
I have such a long successful history with Mobil 1 synthetics its hard for me to change. I just trust the M1 product. I have no experience with the BMW oil. I may be coming around though.
