Guest

As much as I love my E60 and would never buy a Lexus, I would not compare the two manuafacturers for quality of fit and finish and reliability. Toyota are head, if not head and shoulders above BMW in this. Their cars may not be as emotionally rewarding to the enthusiast but they sure run well.
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Hormazd, you appear to misunderstand -- the comparison is not between BMW and Lexus; instead, both BMW and Lexus are "head and shoulders" above MB in quality and reliability (Lexus is a perennial #1 and BMW fluctuates between Top 5 and Top 10 in the annual quality surveys). Because the quality of BMW and Lexus are each superior to MB in the US, BMW has displaced MB as the #1 premium brand in the US (since MY2001 I believe) and MB and Lexus are fighting for the #2 position (which Lexus will soon have, if it does not already have it).

Please also note that most Lexus vehicles are manufactured in completely different factories from their Toyota counterparts, so the quality of each Lexus model is actually slightly better than that of its corresponding Toyota cousin.

Guest

Although the e60 Bangle design is still getting bad press and lower ratings from the US auto rags and self-proclaimed BMW "purists" who still write-in to criticize Bangle for the e60 and M5 designs, 2005 e60 sales are better across the board than the 2003 e39 and 2002 e39 sales (except for the 530i, which has more to do with the launch of the 2006 models in March).

These sales figures vindicate the BMW board's approval of the strategic design theme first introduced in the 7-series and continued on the 6-series and new 2006 3 series. This is certainly a clear example that the customer (so-called BMW "purists") is not always right -- BMW held on to its core business principles and strategic direction to solidify its market leadership, instead of having a ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to appease some very misguided prior customers.

Hormazd

In that case I agree. You just mentioned them together so I was commenting that Lexus quality is higher than BMWs.

DXXXi

Yeah, I was reading in the paper on Friday that the Chrysler Division of D-C was propping up the company while the MB divisions was sagging badly.

I wonder if the quality of Chrysler products has improved as a result of the merger (from what used to be crap according to my Brother in Law who owned some) and the quality of MBs has dropped so that both divisions arrived somewhere in the middle.

Iceman

I don't know if DC increased the quality. But MB sold about double as many cars in 2003 than in 2002, and while the quyntity went up, the quality went down. Now they have a major quality problem, and those are not easy to solve. Even if they solve it, the customers who were not satisfied are going to buy something else the next time, becuase they don't want to risk having the same cheap quality again.

Guest

I do not believe the quality of Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep models has improved since the merger. Instead, Chrysler has benefitted from MB engineering as they have used the multi-link rear suspension design of the E500 for the 300s/Magnums and there are rumors that the MB 7 speed automatic transmission will find its way into various Dodge/Chrysler models. So far, it does not appear that MB will be providing any engines for Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products (but it's just a matter of time before that happens).

In my view, MB engineering is sound, but manufacturing quality, materials, build, fit and finish of the vehicles is significantly below the standards of BMW & Porsche (both German auto manufacturers) and substantially below the standards of Lexus and Infiniti, who have demonstrably superior manufacturing capability.

Iceman makes an important point -- when MB had little/no real competition in its premium segment, it could and would charge what the US market would bear for its cars; cost was no object, so MB spent what was necessary to build quality cars and passed the cost onto the consumer at the premium pricing of its vehicles.

Starting with the M class (in mid 1990s) and the E class (also mid-late 1990s), MB placed a maximum budget cost limit on the engineering & manufacturing cost/expenses of these vehicle families => MB engineers had to cut corners to meet the budget limits. Unfortunately, the US market has seen the disastrous results and poor quality of these MB E and M class vehicles. Because of the competition from BMW and Lexus, MB cannot return to its old practices because the market has disciplined the competitors by defining acceptable price points for each vehicle class (e.g., if MB charged more, they would sell even less so they are unable to increase their design budgets without losing profits; if they are unprofitable, they will be acquired or go out of business).

MB would do well to educate and retrain its entire development and manufacturing team in the 6 sigma quality processes/thinking/methodologies that the Japanese manufacturers know, understand and have practiced for decades. Unless and until it does so, it will continue to lose market share in the US and perhaps eventually fade into obscurity (which would be a real shame for the company credited with inventing the automobile).

TBell

MB is in deep trouble here in the US. The quality of their cars, especially the E-class and M-class, is very poor and MB has fallen out of the top 25 in the JD Power quality rankings.

I have read many posts about MB's strategy to increase the HP of their engines in an effort to increase sales -- this is just a desperate attempt to compete with BMW and now Audi in the US.

So long as BMW and Lexus continue to provide higher quality (vs M premium cars (which means that neither rushes new, higher HP engines to market without full quality/reliability testing just to say "me too" to M, they will win over the old MB market share in the US and guarantee survival in the cutthroat auto business.

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I test-drove an E320CDI about a month before ordering my 530 and was rather amazed at how poor the handling felt as compared to the E60. To me (just an average driver), the E320CDI was very unimpressive for a European mid-size sedan supposedly bred for the smaller curvier roads of Europe.

skaffa

Actually Crosfire have MB engine.

Skaffa