Illogical BMW "Break-in" Recommendation
08-30-2005, 03:13 PM
#21
Contributors
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,573
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2006 530i Sport
Silver Gray - Black Leather - Anthracite Maple
Manual Transmission
Premium Audio
Cold Weather Package
Rear sunshade
Sirius Radio
Autobahnd Roadblock (3M) film kit
I'd be happy to ask my fraternity brother who owns a racing team and 3 racing 3 series how they do their engines. (he's a driver too - James Clay) I'm sure he and his mechanics can comment as to what the engines look like after they tear them apart.
He's got several '06 E90s for next year's season that they're working on now.
I have more than a little trouble listening to a motorcycle builder. Germans are nothing if not fanatical and relentless in the pursuit of the "right" way to do something. If they publish a recommended way to do a given thing, rest assured they can back up the reason to use that particular method.
Bottom line, BMW has been able to pull stats on its engines since the early 90s - a tech can see every revolution these engines have ever turned. That means they could potentially point to a non-conforming break-in as reason to deny warranty work if they chose to. Would you really risk that?
He's got several '06 E90s for next year's season that they're working on now.
I have more than a little trouble listening to a motorcycle builder. Germans are nothing if not fanatical and relentless in the pursuit of the "right" way to do something. If they publish a recommended way to do a given thing, rest assured they can back up the reason to use that particular method.
Bottom line, BMW has been able to pull stats on its engines since the early 90s - a tech can see every revolution these engines have ever turned. That means they could potentially point to a non-conforming break-in as reason to deny warranty work if they chose to. Would you really risk that?
08-30-2005, 03:30 PM
#22
Contributors
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Posts: 4,144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rudy' date='Aug 30 2005, 05:20 PM
I don't mean to offend anyone personally and I'm speaking very generally here (with nobody specific in mind) so I hope nobody takes what I'm about to say personally but...
I think that the people who say synthetic oil is bad are the same type of people who think the SMG is bad.? Many people simply don't like change and are usually skeptical with regards to something they don't fully understand.? It's normal for people to not have a full understanding of newer, high-tech things like synthetic oil, etc. so they resist adopting the newer technology.? Eventually, they gain more understanding and slowly adopt it...
I think that the people who say synthetic oil is bad are the same type of people who think the SMG is bad.? Many people simply don't like change and are usually skeptical with regards to something they don't fully understand.? It's normal for people to not have a full understanding of newer, high-tech things like synthetic oil, etc. so they resist adopting the newer technology.? Eventually, they gain more understanding and slowly adopt it...
[snapback]165327[/snapback]
08-30-2005, 03:52 PM
#23
Contributors
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Los Angeles. CA
Posts: 2,008
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2004 545i 6 spd Sports Package | NAV | PDC | Logic 7 | BT retrofit | SW V13.3
Originally Posted by wolverine' date='Aug 30 2005, 02:52 PM
[quote name='Bimmer32' date='Aug 30 2005, 12:49 PM']This topic assumes that you know about correct engine break-ins.
I'm laying in bed one night, reflecting all the information I have read about break-in process for new motors. Then I remember BMW's advice and here's what I have came up:
1. FACTS: Racing experts say to do "hard" break-ins to get the most power. Engine may not last. Street experts say to break-in moderately. Just about everyone say NOT to use synthetic oil, but regular oil.
Logic: Break-in moderately because you want the balance of power and lasting. Why does BMW put synethic oil in and tell you not to change the oil until 14K miles?
2. FACTS: Experts say that the break-in process is relatively short - about 20 miles to 100 miles.
Logic: To be liberal, lets say maximum of 500 miles for break-ins. Why does BMW say 1200 miles? Is it because the synthetic oil? Expert say not to use it; additionally, you must change the oil after break-ins.
3. FACTS: Experts say that 2K RPM will not help seal the rings. You must do at least 3K RPM. Varying RPM is advised.
Logic: BMW says to vary speed (maybe RPM too). City driving -? that makes sense if you can put above 2.5K RPM. Highway driving? Varying from 55 mph to 85 mph will attract lots of wanna-be racers - one minute you pass them, the other minute you slow down. Additionally, you would have to shift to vary over 1K RPM difference (2k to 3.5K)
Conclusion:
BMW's break-in process is bogus. First, you don't use synethic oil to break-in because it won't seal as good as regular oil. Second, you need to have an oil change ASAP after a break-in because of the particles in the filters and oil. Third, varying speed won't do the trick because you need at least 3K RPM to seal the rings. So what is BMW trying to do?
1. Cover themselves legal.
2. Ensure that owners don't screw anything up for the first 1200 miles. Extend the probability of something not breaking down sooner.
3. Let owners have the fun by being magnets for wanna-be racers.
In my opinion, BMW already "BROKE-IN" your engine (by way of testing) before it was matched to the car chassis. For some of us who bought the car at 40 Odometer, it was broken-in by customers testing or at the distribution center.
I'm laying in bed one night, reflecting all the information I have read about break-in process for new motors. Then I remember BMW's advice and here's what I have came up:
1. FACTS: Racing experts say to do "hard" break-ins to get the most power. Engine may not last. Street experts say to break-in moderately. Just about everyone say NOT to use synthetic oil, but regular oil.
Logic: Break-in moderately because you want the balance of power and lasting. Why does BMW put synethic oil in and tell you not to change the oil until 14K miles?
2. FACTS: Experts say that the break-in process is relatively short - about 20 miles to 100 miles.
Logic: To be liberal, lets say maximum of 500 miles for break-ins. Why does BMW say 1200 miles? Is it because the synthetic oil? Expert say not to use it; additionally, you must change the oil after break-ins.
3. FACTS: Experts say that 2K RPM will not help seal the rings. You must do at least 3K RPM. Varying RPM is advised.
Logic: BMW says to vary speed (maybe RPM too). City driving -? that makes sense if you can put above 2.5K RPM. Highway driving? Varying from 55 mph to 85 mph will attract lots of wanna-be racers - one minute you pass them, the other minute you slow down. Additionally, you would have to shift to vary over 1K RPM difference (2k to 3.5K)
Conclusion:
BMW's break-in process is bogus. First, you don't use synethic oil to break-in because it won't seal as good as regular oil. Second, you need to have an oil change ASAP after a break-in because of the particles in the filters and oil. Third, varying speed won't do the trick because you need at least 3K RPM to seal the rings. So what is BMW trying to do?
1. Cover themselves legal.
2. Ensure that owners don't screw anything up for the first 1200 miles. Extend the probability of something not breaking down sooner.
3. Let owners have the fun by being magnets for wanna-be racers.
In my opinion, BMW already "BROKE-IN" your engine (by way of testing) before it was matched to the car chassis. For some of us who bought the car at 40 Odometer, it was broken-in by customers testing or at the distribution center.
[snapback]165188[/snapback]
I'm an engineer, and have done (long ago) some consulting work for some of the major auto companies. I am NOT an expert in engine design, but I have over 25 years of mechanical design experience.
First of all, there has never been to my knowledge, a statement from an engineer who is an expert in engine design, that the recommended break-in is not required.
My definition of an expert is an engineer who has extensive experience (20-30 years) in mass production engine design and testing.
None of these 'racers' or people who publish things on their websites would qualify as an expert using this definition. In fact, I would venture to say not one of them has had any experience whatsoever in designing a mass production engine.
If I hear from one of the engineers that lead the design on ANY engine produced by one of the major car manufacturers that the break-in should be anything other than what is recommended, then I might pay attention. Otherwise this is just all noise.
[snapback]165303[/snapback]
[/quote]I must concur here. Whereas new (modern) engines are designed to very high tolerances and most probably can be revved at will from the get go, I think some common sense must apply. The pistons do settle over time into the cylinders. This may happen at 300 miles or at 1200 miles it just depends.
BMW says to work in new breaks differential and tires and gearbox for the first 100 miles. On my next car I have every intention of attempting 5500 rpm in 6th gear before I leave Germany. I doubt that any harm will be done after the first 100 miles provided that rpm is not sustained and harsh acceleration is not attempted.
Bottom line is : Use your own judgment.
Oh and BTW. Synthetic Oil all the way. Why on earth put a product that breaks down faster in your new and very tight engine.
08-30-2005, 04:10 PM
#24
Senior Members
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SINGAPORE, The Little Red Dot
Posts: 1,603
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe the engines are not broken in prior to delivery. If you notice, your fuel consumption is higher initially and gradually improves as you approach the 1200miles/2000Km mark.
My strong personal belief is that the engine oil should be changed after break-in. This is because there is definitely metallic residue due to the initial rubbing, etc. If left too long like what BMW recommends, there might be thick sludge build-up in the end. I therefore make it a point to change the engine oil after 2000Km. I do not get the dealer to reset the service interval but let it run as if nothing has been done. I've done this for my 5 Bimmers over the last 5 years. It may not be necessary but I feel better doing so.
My strong personal belief is that the engine oil should be changed after break-in. This is because there is definitely metallic residue due to the initial rubbing, etc. If left too long like what BMW recommends, there might be thick sludge build-up in the end. I therefore make it a point to change the engine oil after 2000Km. I do not get the dealer to reset the service interval but let it run as if nothing has been done. I've done this for my 5 Bimmers over the last 5 years. It may not be necessary but I feel better doing so.
08-30-2005, 04:32 PM
#25
Senior Members
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dublin OH
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: Arrived 3 June 2005: 2005 545i - Orient Blue, Black interior, Sport, Steptronic, Cold Weather, NAV, Sirius, Logic7, Comfort Seats, Sunshades. What a glorious ride!
Anyone who seriously believes synthetic lube is inferior to standard crude-based lube is an idiot. Synthetic is the way to go.
08-30-2005, 04:43 PM
#26
Contributors
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,303
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
My Ride: 2008 535i: June 6th start build, complete June 17th, at NY Port July 5th, at dealer July 10th, took delivery Friday July 13- Plantimum Bronze/Natural Brown Leather/Light Poplar, Sport Package, Sport Auto, Active Steering, Premium Package, CWP & PDC. Dinan Performance Software 384hp & 421 ft/lbs.
Todays engines are manufactured to much more accurate tolerances and utilize higher technological alloys than years ago, so I think todays break-in is totally different than the old days. For older engines it was recommended that you do not use synthetic, Mobil 1 has been around since the 1960's, because the metal parts need to bed into one another and the syn could interfere with that. I think after break-in, the parts sort of glaze and the accelerated wear that happens initially slows down to a minimum. Thats why you can't break-in an engine after a certain amount of miles.
Todays oils and oil filters are again much more advanced than before, also the amount of oil has increased in the engine. This combined with less metal shavings due to the above, allows extended oil change intervals, even the first one.
I would follow the recommendations from BMW, as they know their engines best.
Todays oils and oil filters are again much more advanced than before, also the amount of oil has increased in the engine. This combined with less metal shavings due to the above, allows extended oil change intervals, even the first one.
I would follow the recommendations from BMW, as they know their engines best.
08-30-2005, 04:51 PM
#27
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 2,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: '05 545i, silver gray, black leather with anthracite maple wood, sport package, premium sound, navigation, cold weather package, electric rear sunshade, folding rear seat, satellite radio prep, PIAA 4150K fogs, red rear reflectors, hardwired Valentine One
Originally Posted by Bimmer32' date='Aug 30 2005, 01:55 PM
[quote name='Rudy' date='Aug 30 2005, 02:25 PM']I'm not saying who's right here but I have a problem with the term "experts."? Who's to say who's an expert and who's to say who's not an expert??
Wouldn't BMW be the "experts" on their own engines?? Who are the experts that Bimmer32 is quoting?
You can break the car in any way you choose.? In my case I choose to follow the recommendations of BMW since I feel they are the most qualified to decide what's best for the car they designed and built.
Wouldn't BMW be the "experts" on their own engines?? Who are the experts that Bimmer32 is quoting?
You can break the car in any way you choose.? In my case I choose to follow the recommendations of BMW since I feel they are the most qualified to decide what's best for the car they designed and built.
[snapback]165209[/snapback]
http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
http://www.cycle-parts.com/forum/showthrea...ode=hybrid&t=83
Talk to people that actually "knows" engine and not people who "experience" engines. "Expert" is my subjective judgement = opinion since I only experience engines and not know them personally.
[snapback]165273[/snapback]
[/quote]Here we go again...
A very loose use of the term "facts" "experts" and "logic."
Those so-called experts have been around for a while--and they seem to be addressing motorcycle engines...
I've owned many cars from BMW, Porsche and Mercedes/AMG, and they all have recommended break in procedures...these are not just for the benefit of the engine, but also the rest of the drive train.
I've visited the Porsche factory and watched them hand assemble engines and then run them on a bench--at points pretty aggressively--but they still have a recommended break in procedure.
Why would BMW, Porsche, Mercedes--and who knows what other car manufacturers--have these break in procedures if they weren't necessary? Go ahead and believe some "expert" who has a website (yeah...that makes them an expert)...or rely on the recommendations of the company that manufactured your car. I've always followed the break in procedures--not easy some times, but I look it as a good practice.
08-30-2005, 04:53 PM
#28
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 2,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: '05 545i, silver gray, black leather with anthracite maple wood, sport package, premium sound, navigation, cold weather package, electric rear sunshade, folding rear seat, satellite radio prep, PIAA 4150K fogs, red rear reflectors, hardwired Valentine One
Originally Posted by Edlee' date='Aug 30 2005, 05:10 PM
I believe the engines are not broken in prior to delivery.? If you notice, your fuel consumption is higher initially and gradually improves as you approach the 1200miles/2000Km mark.?
My strong personal belief is that the engine oil should be changed after break-in.? This is because there is definitely metallic residue due to the initial rubbing, etc.? If left too long like what BMW recommends, there might be thick sludge build-up in the end.? I therefore make it a point to change the engine oil after 2000Km.? I do not get the dealer to reset the service interval but let it run as if nothing has been done.? I've done this for my 5 Bimmers over the last 5 years.? It may not be necessary but I feel better doing so.
My strong personal belief is that the engine oil should be changed after break-in.? This is because there is definitely metallic residue due to the initial rubbing, etc.? If left too long like what BMW recommends, there might be thick sludge build-up in the end.? I therefore make it a point to change the engine oil after 2000Km.? I do not get the dealer to reset the service interval but let it run as if nothing has been done.? I've done this for my 5 Bimmers over the last 5 years.? It may not be necessary but I feel better doing so.
[snapback]165361[/snapback]
08-30-2005, 07:23 PM
#30
Contributors
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: 2005 BMW 545i, Silver Grey, Sport Package, R. Shades, Cold Pkg, Sat. Rad., Prem. Sound.
Originally Posted by wolverine' date='Aug 30 2005, 08:58 PM
The E60 M5 has an oil change directly after initial break-in.
[snapback]165393[/snapback]
I sense seniority issues on this forum, possibly trying to limit one's right to question authorities (BMW), and a willingness to limit freedom of one's opinion. hmmm.
Regardless, if the admin feels that what I post is inappropriate to this forum, he/she should kick me off.
My intention is not to "bad mouth" BMW, but only hope that through dialogue, we all come to know more, and perhaps have BMW continue to built and education consumers better. It is only to BMW's disadvantage for them to ignore forums such as this.
Why in the world would I "bad mouth" a car I paid $60K+? I like my 05 545i.
I'd rather sell than waste my time on this forum if my intentions were to "badmouth."