I love SMG...but the perfect gearbox would be...
09-13-2005, 02:35 PM
#11
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2004 545i | SMG | White/Black | Sport | NAV | Logic 7 | PDC | Fold-down Seats | Adaptive Headlights | Cold Weather Pkg | Clear-again Bra | Mud Flaps | Bluetooth | Coat Hangar | Aux Input | All Weather Mats | 18"X8.5" BBS RK w/ Michelin Pilot Alpin's (winter) | New steering rack @ 1.2K & 17K miles| Software V.19.1 | B&B Exhaust (vrrrroooooommm!) <---Click.
The only time I miss the clutch pedal is at start/launch/etc. Accelleration Assist is not controllable enough and is often "too much".
A regular start is very smooth but sometimes is "not enough".
Aside from that I really don't miss the clutch pedal.
I don't have an issue flicking the shift knob into N when I need it.
(My $0.02)
A regular start is very smooth but sometimes is "not enough".
Aside from that I really don't miss the clutch pedal.
I don't have an issue flicking the shift knob into N when I need it.
(My $0.02)
09-13-2005, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rodybmw' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:50 PM
Sorry for the long post but....
After almost 12000 miles on my 545i I can honestly say that I love the SMG.? I would love to have faster shifting (especially downshifts), but even in it's present form I would buy an SMG again if I were buying another E60 now. HOWEVER,......having said that I do occasionally miss the "feeling" of using a clutch and selecting different gears.....you know, the hand and foot movements involved in driving a manual.? So I think there is a way to give us the best of manual and SMG transmission in one car.?
First of all, in it's current state the SMG clutch operation, as well as the actual gearshifts are done by valves and solenoids.? They get their commands when to "push in" the clutch and when to "shift the gears" from the computer, which issues those commands after receiving a command from the driver (paddles or gearshift knob).? Each position on the gearshift knob (R, N, D, +, -) has an electronic switch that when activated sends a signal to the computer which then commands the transmission to do what is needed.? For example, if the car is stopped and then we push on the gas pedal the computer commands the clutch valve to release the clutch and the car moves....then when we tap the paddle or the gearshift knob the computer commands the clutch valve to dis-engage the clutch, the tranmission solenoids to change the gear, and then the clutch valve to re-engage the clutch.? The point that I am trying to make is that everything is commanded and controlled by switches and the computer, so the idea that I am about to propose "should" not be hard to implement by BMW, or even to retrofit by one of the high end BMW tuners (Alpina, etc.).? Here's what my idea would be, tell me what you think:
I think they could add a clutch pedal to the SMG cars that would NOT be mechanically (or hydraulically) attached to the clutch slave cylinder, but instead it would electronically be connected to the computer.? Think of the "drive-by-wire" gas pedals......well this would be "clutch-by-wire".? It would have a high resolution encoder so as to provide true variable control over the clutch.? In addition to that the gear shift knob/gate would be replaced by another unit that would have all the gears 1 through 6, Neutral, and Reverse in the traditional positions that the BMW 6 speed manual has.? The only difference would be that just like the clutch the gear shifter would NOT be physically connected to the gearbox but instead a "shift-by-wire" shift gate that is connected to the computer.? It would have switches in all the gear positions (1-6, N, and R) instead of the few that the current SMG has.
So here's how it would work.? A button next to the gear shift knob would select whether you want to drive it in "SMG manual mode", "SMG Auto mode", or "True manual mode with clutch".? If you select "SMG manual mode" or "SMG Auto mode" then you would use it just like you do the current SMG.? However, if you choose the "True manual mode with clutch" then the computer would look at the input from the electronic clutch pedal and electronic gear shift knob to do what is commanded.? For example, when the cluth pedal is pressed the computer would get the signal from the electronic clutch pedal and command the clutch slave cylinder to disengage the clutch the exact amount that corresponds to how far you have pushed the clutch pedal.? Then you would select the first gear with the shifter knob and the switch in position 1 of the gate would send a signal to the computer to put the gearbox in 1st gear.? Then you would release the electronic clutch pedal which would tell the computer to release the clutch slave cylinder and engage the clutch.? Essentially this simulates the control and the "feel" that you get in a manual gearbox car.? However, you still have the SMG option available whenever you want to use that.......the perfect combination as far as I am concerned.
I think this is a relatively simple change which only involves the inputs to the computer, the outputs from the computer should remain the same as they are currently.? It only involves a couple of electronic input devices (electronic variable output clutch pedal, electronic manual shift gate) and software changes to look at and interpret the inputs.? After that point the output or the commands issued by the computer to the clutch valve or gear shifting solenoids should be the same as they are now on the SMG.
I don't want it to seem like I am oversimplifying this, but at the same time to me it seems like a relatively simple addition to the current SMG setup without having to change the actual hardware involved (gearbox, slave cylinder, etc.).? It only involves input devices and software.? I think even a competent BMW tuner could do this, let alone the factory.
THIS would be the perfect transmission for me
.? If I had this I think I would probalbly drive it in true manual mode just as much as in manual SMG mode and would not miss the "feel" of manual shifting.
What do you guys think?
After almost 12000 miles on my 545i I can honestly say that I love the SMG.? I would love to have faster shifting (especially downshifts), but even in it's present form I would buy an SMG again if I were buying another E60 now. HOWEVER,......having said that I do occasionally miss the "feeling" of using a clutch and selecting different gears.....you know, the hand and foot movements involved in driving a manual.? So I think there is a way to give us the best of manual and SMG transmission in one car.?
First of all, in it's current state the SMG clutch operation, as well as the actual gearshifts are done by valves and solenoids.? They get their commands when to "push in" the clutch and when to "shift the gears" from the computer, which issues those commands after receiving a command from the driver (paddles or gearshift knob).? Each position on the gearshift knob (R, N, D, +, -) has an electronic switch that when activated sends a signal to the computer which then commands the transmission to do what is needed.? For example, if the car is stopped and then we push on the gas pedal the computer commands the clutch valve to release the clutch and the car moves....then when we tap the paddle or the gearshift knob the computer commands the clutch valve to dis-engage the clutch, the tranmission solenoids to change the gear, and then the clutch valve to re-engage the clutch.? The point that I am trying to make is that everything is commanded and controlled by switches and the computer, so the idea that I am about to propose "should" not be hard to implement by BMW, or even to retrofit by one of the high end BMW tuners (Alpina, etc.).? Here's what my idea would be, tell me what you think:
I think they could add a clutch pedal to the SMG cars that would NOT be mechanically (or hydraulically) attached to the clutch slave cylinder, but instead it would electronically be connected to the computer.? Think of the "drive-by-wire" gas pedals......well this would be "clutch-by-wire".? It would have a high resolution encoder so as to provide true variable control over the clutch.? In addition to that the gear shift knob/gate would be replaced by another unit that would have all the gears 1 through 6, Neutral, and Reverse in the traditional positions that the BMW 6 speed manual has.? The only difference would be that just like the clutch the gear shifter would NOT be physically connected to the gearbox but instead a "shift-by-wire" shift gate that is connected to the computer.? It would have switches in all the gear positions (1-6, N, and R) instead of the few that the current SMG has.
So here's how it would work.? A button next to the gear shift knob would select whether you want to drive it in "SMG manual mode", "SMG Auto mode", or "True manual mode with clutch".? If you select "SMG manual mode" or "SMG Auto mode" then you would use it just like you do the current SMG.? However, if you choose the "True manual mode with clutch" then the computer would look at the input from the electronic clutch pedal and electronic gear shift knob to do what is commanded.? For example, when the cluth pedal is pressed the computer would get the signal from the electronic clutch pedal and command the clutch slave cylinder to disengage the clutch the exact amount that corresponds to how far you have pushed the clutch pedal.? Then you would select the first gear with the shifter knob and the switch in position 1 of the gate would send a signal to the computer to put the gearbox in 1st gear.? Then you would release the electronic clutch pedal which would tell the computer to release the clutch slave cylinder and engage the clutch.? Essentially this simulates the control and the "feel" that you get in a manual gearbox car.? However, you still have the SMG option available whenever you want to use that.......the perfect combination as far as I am concerned.
I think this is a relatively simple change which only involves the inputs to the computer, the outputs from the computer should remain the same as they are currently.? It only involves a couple of electronic input devices (electronic variable output clutch pedal, electronic manual shift gate) and software changes to look at and interpret the inputs.? After that point the output or the commands issued by the computer to the clutch valve or gear shifting solenoids should be the same as they are now on the SMG.
I don't want it to seem like I am oversimplifying this, but at the same time to me it seems like a relatively simple addition to the current SMG setup without having to change the actual hardware involved (gearbox, slave cylinder, etc.).? It only involves input devices and software.? I think even a competent BMW tuner could do this, let alone the factory.
THIS would be the perfect transmission for me
.? If I had this I think I would probalbly drive it in true manual mode just as much as in manual SMG mode and would not miss the "feel" of manual shifting.What do you guys think?
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09-13-2005, 08:38 PM
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WOW!!! what a read... Did I just read a book? 
I thought about that theory... but just not that much in depth. Idea is neat I think I would like it. BUT it better have a really GOOD clucth feel. I dont like clutches that doesnt have any feel, a la Honda Civic.... if they can make it feel like a MINI Cooper S clutch or a ///M clutch then I might be interested...
I'm not sure how I would like the shifting feel though... as you dont have the H pattern anymore and just going up and down on the SMG lever or steering wheel paddles and operating a clutch would make it kind of odd.
Plus the other thing is I like the feeling of being able to feel the gear being selected if I cant feel it I think I would always look at the dash to wait for the number change than release the clutch, by then the RPMs would have dropped too much I think.
I dunno, hard to say if I'll want it or not.
I thought about that theory... but just not that much in depth. Idea is neat I think I would like it. BUT it better have a really GOOD clucth feel. I dont like clutches that doesnt have any feel, a la Honda Civic.... if they can make it feel like a MINI Cooper S clutch or a ///M clutch then I might be interested...
I'm not sure how I would like the shifting feel though... as you dont have the H pattern anymore and just going up and down on the SMG lever or steering wheel paddles and operating a clutch would make it kind of odd.
Plus the other thing is I like the feeling of being able to feel the gear being selected if I cant feel it I think I would always look at the dash to wait for the number change than release the clutch, by then the RPMs would have dropped too much I think.
I dunno, hard to say if I'll want it or not.
09-13-2005, 09:25 PM
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My Ride: 2008 Porsche 911 Carrera S Convertible. Midnight Blue, 6 Speed.Retired - 2007 997 Carrera S, Midnight Blue, Grey leather, premium audioRetired - 2007 550i, Monaco Blue over Beige, Navigation, Logic 7, Cold Weather Pack, Comfort Access, Sport Package
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Originally Posted by donv' date='Sep 13 2005, 12:02 AM
[quote name='rodybmw' date='Sep 10 2005, 02:50 AM']Sorry for the long post but....
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
[snapback]169035[/snapback]
[snapback]169902[/snapback]
[/quote]Agreed, really can't imagine it would take much more than just a software change to implement this right now with the current steptronic.
09-14-2005, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by EBMCS03' date='Sep 13 2005, 09:38 PM
WOW!!! what a read... Did I just read a book??
I thought about that theory... but just not that much in depth. Idea is neat I think I would like it. BUT it better have a really GOOD clucth feel. I dont like clutches that doesnt have any feel, a la Honda Civic.... if they can make it feel like a MINI Cooper S clutch or a ///M clutch then I might be interested...
I'm not sure how I would like the shifting feel though... as you dont have the H pattern anymore and just going up and down on the SMG lever or steering wheel paddles and operating a clutch would make it kind of odd.
Plus the other thing is I like the feeling of being able to feel the gear being selected if I cant feel it I think I would always look at the dash to wait for the number change than release the clutch, by then the RPMs would have dropped too much I think.
I dunno, hard to say if I'll want it or not.?
I thought about that theory... but just not that much in depth. Idea is neat I think I would like it. BUT it better have a really GOOD clucth feel. I dont like clutches that doesnt have any feel, a la Honda Civic.... if they can make it feel like a MINI Cooper S clutch or a ///M clutch then I might be interested...
I'm not sure how I would like the shifting feel though... as you dont have the H pattern anymore and just going up and down on the SMG lever or steering wheel paddles and operating a clutch would make it kind of odd.
Plus the other thing is I like the feeling of being able to feel the gear being selected if I cant feel it I think I would always look at the dash to wait for the number change than release the clutch, by then the RPMs would have dropped too much I think.
I dunno, hard to say if I'll want it or not.?
[snapback]170254[/snapback]
Actually my proposed system WOULD have the H pattern.....maybe I did not explain it clearly in my original post. It would simulate the EXACT gate and shift pattern as the 6 speed manual's on the E60. Instead of having the momentary push fwd or pull back with a return to center it would actually have 8 distinct positions (1-6, R, N) with a switch in each of those positions to tell the computer which gear is being selected. Once the shifter is moved to a given gear position it would stay there until you take it out......exactly like the Reverse gear position on our current SMG, and exactly like a manual transmission. If you ask me shifting into reverse on the current SMG has a great feel to it, and you know exactly where you have shifted by feel alone. So basically just imagine having the exact shifter/gate pattern as the 6 speed manual and going through the exact same motions as you would on the manual (NOT just the push up/Pull down on the current SMG)
As far as the clutch "feel" I think they can achieve whatever feel they want by using a combination of springs and air/oil shocks.
09-14-2005, 03:18 PM
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I like the idea, but only dependant on two things:
1) It has to be affordable; and,
2) It has to feel like a good 'ol mehcanically shifting manual from depressing the clutch pedal to rowing through the gears.
I absolutely love the feel of the BMW manual transmission. The "thunk" you feel when the gear selector slides into a gate and the joy of rev matching during downshifts. If that feedback can be accurately reproduced by an "electronic" system, I'd be tempted to buy it.
Oh yeah, keep the gates close together for that short-shifting sweetness!
1) It has to be affordable; and,
2) It has to feel like a good 'ol mehcanically shifting manual from depressing the clutch pedal to rowing through the gears.
I absolutely love the feel of the BMW manual transmission. The "thunk" you feel when the gear selector slides into a gate and the joy of rev matching during downshifts. If that feedback can be accurately reproduced by an "electronic" system, I'd be tempted to buy it.
Oh yeah, keep the gates close together for that short-shifting sweetness!
09-14-2005, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Centurion' date='Sep 14 2005, 06:18 PM
I like the idea, but only dependant on two things:
1) It has to be affordable; and,
2) It has to feel like a good 'ol mehcanically shifting manual from depressing the clutch pedal to rowing through the gears.
I absolutely love the feel of the BMW manual transmission.? The "thunk" you feel when the gear selector slides into a gate and the joy of rev matching during downshifts.? If that feedback can be accurately reproduced by an "electronic" system, I'd be tempted to buy it.
Oh yeah, keep the gates close together for that short-shifting sweetness!
1) It has to be affordable; and,
2) It has to feel like a good 'ol mehcanically shifting manual from depressing the clutch pedal to rowing through the gears.
I absolutely love the feel of the BMW manual transmission.? The "thunk" you feel when the gear selector slides into a gate and the joy of rev matching during downshifts.? If that feedback can be accurately reproduced by an "electronic" system, I'd be tempted to buy it.
Oh yeah, keep the gates close together for that short-shifting sweetness!
[snapback]170673[/snapback]
09-14-2005, 04:20 PM
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- I agree w/ Rodybmw that SMG shifting (on E60) is not on par with spirited driving of a true sport sedan like BMW's.
I once expressed that E60 SMG is a dog when it comes to upshifting and that I can switch 3 times as fast with a manual (at which point most SMG owners came down on me in order to defend their choices)
- I also agree with speedracerF4i that I miss the H grid, and the sense of always knowing what gear I'm in
But consider this:
E60 SMG was arguably the first to sell SMG in a large distribution model, and that particular technology is already obsolete.
Remember that Z4 SMG that predates it was even worse.
E60 M5 SMG is supposed to be superb, and others like Audi (Porsche?) have SMG technology much more advanced that our non-M5 E60's.
What engineers have to work on now is to give us the biofeedback of gear currently engaged.
My SMG transmission could be better, but hey, I chose it to explore the technology, and to keep my aging left calf content even in heavy traffic.
On those account, I'm perfectly happy with my choice.
I once expressed that E60 SMG is a dog when it comes to upshifting and that I can switch 3 times as fast with a manual (at which point most SMG owners came down on me in order to defend their choices)
- I also agree with speedracerF4i that I miss the H grid, and the sense of always knowing what gear I'm in
But consider this:
E60 SMG was arguably the first to sell SMG in a large distribution model, and that particular technology is already obsolete.
Remember that Z4 SMG that predates it was even worse.
E60 M5 SMG is supposed to be superb, and others like Audi (Porsche?) have SMG technology much more advanced that our non-M5 E60's.
What engineers have to work on now is to give us the biofeedback of gear currently engaged.
My SMG transmission could be better, but hey, I chose it to explore the technology, and to keep my aging left calf content even in heavy traffic.
On those account, I'm perfectly happy with my choice.
09-14-2005, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rodybmw' date='Sep 13 2005, 02:04 AM
Hmmm.......I was curious to hear from the veteran members of the SMG gang. Do you guys? ever miss the traditional clutch and shifting action of a manual?? Would you go for a transmission like the one I described above if it were available?.....or do you think it's a waist of money and there is no reason for BMW to give us an SMG with the additional feature of a manual mode with a clutch pedal?
Rudy.........JDN........realtyman..........EBMCS03 .......Kigerka ??????
Rudy.........JDN........realtyman..........EBMCS03 .......Kigerka ??????
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09-14-2005, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by robg' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:51 PM
[quote name='Centurion' date='Sep 14 2005, 06:18 PM']I like the idea, but only dependant on two things:
1) It has to be affordable; and,
2) It has to feel like a good 'ol mehcanically shifting manual from depressing the clutch pedal to rowing through the gears.
I absolutely love the feel of the BMW manual transmission.? The "thunk" you feel when the gear selector slides into a gate and the joy of rev matching during downshifts.? If that feedback can be accurately reproduced by an "electronic" system, I'd be tempted to buy it.
Oh yeah, keep the gates close together for that short-shifting sweetness!
1) It has to be affordable; and,
2) It has to feel like a good 'ol mehcanically shifting manual from depressing the clutch pedal to rowing through the gears.
I absolutely love the feel of the BMW manual transmission.? The "thunk" you feel when the gear selector slides into a gate and the joy of rev matching during downshifts.? If that feedback can be accurately reproduced by an "electronic" system, I'd be tempted to buy it.
Oh yeah, keep the gates close together for that short-shifting sweetness!
[snapback]170673[/snapback]
[snapback]170681[/snapback]
[/quote]That's what I'm saying.
I was only entertaining rody's idea in that IF they ever did design something like what he is looking for, the "true manual" part of it should feel like a traditional manual shifter otherwise I would just get a straight up manual shifter.